I propose that for Csound 6, the audio sample size be only double, and
the architecture be only 64 bits.

Regards,
Mike

-- 
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http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

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Wouldn't that exclude Win32?

On 2/25/12, Michael Gogins  wrote:
> I propose that for Csound 6, the audio sample size be only double, and
> the architecture be only 64 bits.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> --
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
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Michael Gogins wrote:

> I propose that for Csound 6, the audio sample size be only double,

That makes sense.

> and the architecture be only 64 bits.

What about arm CPUs in iDevices and Android devices.

Erik
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.mega-nerd.com/

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Also, earlier Mac machines (such as the intel iMac wot I am using - ah, 
the price of early adoption) can't be updated to run at 64bits; there 
may be a lot of otherwise happy Mac users out there who can't lay their 
hands on a new 64bit-friendly machine "just like that". A selling  point 
of Csound  was always that it would buld/run on just about anything. The 
only 64bit OS I have at home is Linux on a cheap laptop, and I can't see 
that situation changing any time soon.

Richard Dobson

On 25/02/2012 13:55, Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
> Michael Gogins wrote:
>
>> I propose that for Csound 6, the audio sample size be only double,
>
> That makes sense.
>
>> and the architecture be only 64 bits.
>
> What about arm CPUs in iDevices and Android devices.
>
> Erik


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64-bit cpu isn't prudent at this time.  We need to support it, and
that's done already on Linux and OSX.  But we need 32-bit as well, for
the reasons mentioned by others, particularly arm cpu's (android,
ios).

I think we should switch to double's build as default finally.  I
think we'll need to keep floats around for arm cpu's though.

steven

On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Richard Dobson
 wrote:
> Also, earlier Mac machines (such as the intel iMac wot I am using - ah,
> the price of early adoption) can't be updated to run at 64bits; there
> may be a lot of otherwise happy Mac users out there who can't lay their
> hands on a new 64bit-friendly machine "just like that". A selling  point
> of Csound  was always that it would buld/run on just about anything. The
> only 64bit OS I have at home is Linux on a cheap laptop, and I can't see
> that situation changing any time soon.
>
> Richard Dobson
>
> On 25/02/2012 13:55, Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
>> Michael Gogins wrote:
>>
>>> I propose that for Csound 6, the audio sample size be only double,
>>
>> That makes sense.
>>
>>> and the architecture be only 64 bits.
>>
>> What about arm CPUs in iDevices and Android devices.
>>
>> Erik
>
>
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Then I think we should make only double sample size, and by default
the 64 bit architecture, with support for 32 bit architecture. In
other words, we develop on 64 bit architecture. That goes for Windows
too.

Regards,
Mike

On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Steven Yi  wrote:
> 64-bit cpu isn't prudent at this time.  We need to support it, and
> that's done already on Linux and OSX.  But we need 32-bit as well, for
> the reasons mentioned by others, particularly arm cpu's (android,
> ios).
>
> I think we should switch to double's build as default finally.  I
> think we'll need to keep floats around for arm cpu's though.
>
> steven
>
> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Richard Dobson
>  wrote:
>> Also, earlier Mac machines (such as the intel iMac wot I am using - ah,
>> the price of early adoption) can't be updated to run at 64bits; there
>> may be a lot of otherwise happy Mac users out there who can't lay their
>> hands on a new 64bit-friendly machine "just like that". A selling  point
>> of Csound  was always that it would buld/run on just about anything. The
>> only 64bit OS I have at home is Linux on a cheap laptop, and I can't see
>> that situation changing any time soon.
>>
>> Richard Dobson
>>
>> On 25/02/2012 13:55, Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
>>> Michael Gogins wrote:
>>>
>>>> I propose that for Csound 6, the audio sample size be only double,
>>>
>>> That makes sense.
>>>
>>>> and the architecture be only 64 bits.
>>>
>>> What about arm CPUs in iDevices and Android devices.
>>>
>>> Erik
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>
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-- 
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Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

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On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Michael Gogins
 wrote:
> Then I think we should make only double sample size, and by default
> the 64 bit architecture, with support for 32 bit architecture. In
> other words, we develop on 64 bit architecture. That goes for Windows
> too.

Why?

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Because serious audio applications are being built for 64 bit
architecture now. It is what professional composers and producers are
beginning to use. E.g. Sibelius 7 which I just bought is only for 64
bit architecture. To run CsoundVST in it I have to use jBridge. Sonar
and Cubase also are now 64 bit.

If we develop on 64 bit architecture, then we can be sure it will
work; if that works the 32 bit architecture almost certainly also will
work, certainly with some minor tweaks.

Technically, the reasons are (a) 64 bit words and registers are now
"native" on the CPUs, so 64 bit code is a little faster-running, and
more importantly (b) the 2 GB memory space limit for applications is
actually becoming a musical limitation. This limitation is blown away
completely on the 64 bit architecture, you basically can load as much
stuff into RAM as you have RAM. This can be quite important for
sample-based synthesis and is probably the reason for the
above-referenced changes. Film composers e.g. run hundreds of GB of
samples in a session. They have racks and racks of computers and
drives loaded with samples. Csound built for 64 bit architecture can
live and work in this world, but for 32 bits it is a bit out of
league.

Regards,
Mike

On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 12:00 PM, andy fillebrown
 wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Michael Gogins
>  wrote:
>> Then I think we should make only double sample size, and by default
>> the 64 bit architecture, with support for 32 bit architecture. In
>> other words, we develop on 64 bit architecture. That goes for Windows
>> too.
>
> Why?
>
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-- 
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Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

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Well, I don't think the issue is support for 64-bit or not, it's
already there and working.  If you're on a 64-bit Linux or OSX, you're
already using it.  The issue is the idea of dropping support for
32-bit, which is a no-go, as Desktop computing platforms are not the
only things we support.  iOS and Android are going to need 32-bit
architecture.

Luckily, this doesn't really affect how we develop the code.  It boils
down to compiler flags and having libraries built for 32 and 64-bit to
link to.  The practice is clear for OSX and Linux: on OSX we compile
fat binaries already and supply fat binary versions of libraries in
the installer.  On Linux it'll depend on what you have installed and
the package manager.  To some degree, it's a matter of making sure
there are 64-bit builds happening in 64-bit repos, but again not
something that we need to do in code.

For Windows, I don't think anyone has done 64-bit builds.  But again,
it's a build issue and not a coding one.

The only real issue I see is double/float, and it appears we're all on
board to switch to doubles first, float available, to accomodate
non-desktop platforms.

steven

On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:26 PM, Michael Gogins
 wrote:
> Because serious audio applications are being built for 64 bit
> architecture now. It is what professional composers and producers are
> beginning to use. E.g. Sibelius 7 which I just bought is only for 64
> bit architecture. To run CsoundVST in it I have to use jBridge. Sonar
> and Cubase also are now 64 bit.
>
> If we develop on 64 bit architecture, then we can be sure it will
> work; if that works the 32 bit architecture almost certainly also will
> work, certainly with some minor tweaks.
>
> Technically, the reasons are (a) 64 bit words and registers are now
> "native" on the CPUs, so 64 bit code is a little faster-running, and
> more importantly (b) the 2 GB memory space limit for applications is
> actually becoming a musical limitation. This limitation is blown away
> completely on the 64 bit architecture, you basically can load as much
> stuff into RAM as you have RAM. This can be quite important for
> sample-based synthesis and is probably the reason for the
> above-referenced changes. Film composers e.g. run hundreds of GB of
> samples in a session. They have racks and racks of computers and
> drives loaded with samples. Csound built for 64 bit architecture can
> live and work in this world, but for 32 bits it is a bit out of
> league.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 12:00 PM, andy fillebrown
>  wrote:
>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Michael Gogins
>>  wrote:
>>> Then I think we should make only double sample size, and by default
>>> the 64 bit architecture, with support for 32 bit architecture. In
>>> other words, we develop on 64 bit architecture. That goes for Windows
>>> too.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
>> Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
>> also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
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>> Csound-devel mailing list
>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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I'm happy as long as I can compile Csound for floats and doubles.  If
they could be installed side by side on the same machine for the same
user, that'd be great.  As it is right now there is an issue with
csnd.dll being the same name for both floats and doubles, which makes
it impractical to have both Csound versions on the PATH.

Also, for Csound 6 can we get the version number suffixes removed from
the .dll name, or at least moved so .dll is the last extension, not
.6.x?

Cheers,
~ af



On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Steven Yi  wrote:
> Well, I don't think the issue is support for 64-bit or not, it's
> already there and working.  If you're on a 64-bit Linux or OSX, you're
> already using it.  The issue is the idea of dropping support for
> 32-bit, which is a no-go, as Desktop computing platforms are not the
> only things we support.  iOS and Android are going to need 32-bit
> architecture.
>
> Luckily, this doesn't really affect how we develop the code.  It boils
> down to compiler flags and having libraries built for 32 and 64-bit to
> link to.  The practice is clear for OSX and Linux: on OSX we compile
> fat binaries already and supply fat binary versions of libraries in
> the installer.  On Linux it'll depend on what you have installed and
> the package manager.  To some degree, it's a matter of making sure
> there are 64-bit builds happening in 64-bit repos, but again not
> something that we need to do in code.
>
> For Windows, I don't think anyone has done 64-bit builds.  But again,
> it's a build issue and not a coding one.
>
> The only real issue I see is double/float, and it appears we're all on
> board to switch to doubles first, float available, to accomodate
> non-desktop platforms.
>
> steven
>
> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:26 PM, Michael Gogins
>  wrote:
>> Because serious audio applications are being built for 64 bit
>> architecture now. It is what professional composers and producers are
>> beginning to use. E.g. Sibelius 7 which I just bought is only for 64
>> bit architecture. To run CsoundVST in it I have to use jBridge. Sonar
>> and Cubase also are now 64 bit.
>>
>> If we develop on 64 bit architecture, then we can be sure it will
>> work; if that works the 32 bit architecture almost certainly also will
>> work, certainly with some minor tweaks.
>>
>> Technically, the reasons are (a) 64 bit words and registers are now
>> "native" on the CPUs, so 64 bit code is a little faster-running, and
>> more importantly (b) the 2 GB memory space limit for applications is
>> actually becoming a musical limitation. This limitation is blown away
>> completely on the 64 bit architecture, you basically can load as much
>> stuff into RAM as you have RAM. This can be quite important for
>> sample-based synthesis and is probably the reason for the
>> above-referenced changes. Film composers e.g. run hundreds of GB of
>> samples in a session. They have racks and racks of computers and
>> drives loaded with samples. Csound built for 64 bit architecture can
>> live and work in this world, but for 32 bits it is a bit out of
>> league.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 12:00 PM, andy fillebrown
>>  wrote:
>>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Michael Gogins
>>>  wrote:
>>>> Then I think we should make only double sample size, and by default
>>>> the 64 bit architecture, with support for 32 bit architecture. In
>>>> other words, we develop on 64 bit architecture. That goes for Windows
>>>> too.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
>>> Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
>>> also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
>>> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>
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