This is a question probably mostly for Victor Lazzarini...

Does it make sense to include fsigs in the signal flow graph?

If so, obviously all fsigs feeding into an inlet have to be the same
format. Beyond that, what is "mixing?" I presume it is just straight
addition of the source fsigs, i.e. complex addition of each sample in
the signal frame.

Thinking about this, I can see where mixing of fsigs may not often
make a whole lot of sense, but having them in the signal flow graph
system would still make sense, in terms of routing fsigs serially from
one processor to another in a chain, or routing an fsig from one
source to several different processors in parallel.

Please advise...

Regards,
Mike


-- 
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay 
ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
_______________________________________________
Csound-devel mailing list
Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net

I have to think about it. Mixing of signals is a special process, whereby
we mix the loudest bins.
I'll try to figure out in my head what you'd like to do and then I'll
give you some suggestions.

Victor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Gogins" 
To: "Developer discussions" 
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 6:16 PM
Subject: [Cs-dev] Signal flow graph and PVSDAT


> This is a question probably mostly for Victor Lazzarini...
>
> Does it make sense to include fsigs in the signal flow graph?
>
> If so, obviously all fsigs feeding into an inlet have to be the same
> format. Beyond that, what is "mixing?" I presume it is just straight
> addition of the source fsigs, i.e. complex addition of each sample in
> the signal frame.
>
> Thinking about this, I can see where mixing of fsigs may not often
> make a whole lot of sense, but having them in the signal flow graph
> system would still make sense, in terms of routing fsigs serially from
> one processor to another in a chain, or routing an fsig from one
> source to several different processors in parallel.
>
> Please advise...
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
>
> -- 
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register 
> now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> _______________________________________________
> Csound-devel mailing list
> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay 
ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
_______________________________________________
Csound-devel mailing list
Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net

Yes, I looked at the source code for the pvsmix opcode and I think I
understand that. My real question is which is the right thing to do in
a signal flow graph combining two fsigs, picking the louder bin, or
just straight addition.

Regards,
Mike

On 9/20/09, victor  wrote:
> I have to think about it. Mixing of signals is a special process, whereby
> we mix the loudest bins.
> I'll try to figure out in my head what you'd like to do and then I'll
> give you some suggestions.
>
> Victor
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Gogins" 
> To: "Developer discussions" 
> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 6:16 PM
> Subject: [Cs-dev] Signal flow graph and PVSDAT
>
>
>> This is a question probably mostly for Victor Lazzarini...
>>
>> Does it make sense to include fsigs in the signal flow graph?
>>
>> If so, obviously all fsigs feeding into an inlet have to be the same
>> format. Beyond that, what is "mixing?" I presume it is just straight
>> addition of the source fsigs, i.e. complex addition of each sample in
>> the signal frame.
>>
>> Thinking about this, I can see where mixing of fsigs may not often
>> make a whole lot of sense, but having them in the signal flow graph
>> system would still make sense, in terms of routing fsigs serially from
>> one processor to another in a chain, or routing an fsig from one
>> source to several different processors in parallel.
>>
>> Please advise...
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>> now!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> _______________________________________________
>> Csound-devel mailing list
>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> _______________________________________________
> Csound-devel mailing list
> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>


-- 
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay 
ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
_______________________________________________
Csound-devel mailing list
Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net

Michael,

straightforward addition will not really work; mixing like pvsmix is
the best we can do without getting into too much complication.

Regards

Victor


On 20 Sep 2009, at 19:23, Michael Gogins wrote:

> Yes, I looked at the source code for the pvsmix opcode and I think I
> understand that. My real question is which is the right thing to do in
> a signal flow graph combining two fsigs, picking the louder bin, or
> just straight addition.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On 9/20/09, victor  wrote:
>> I have to think about it. Mixing of signals is a special process,  
>> whereby
>> we mix the loudest bins.
>> I'll try to figure out in my head what you'd like to do and then I'll
>> give you some suggestions.
>>
>> Victor
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Gogins" 
>> To: "Developer discussions" 
>> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 6:16 PM
>> Subject: [Cs-dev] Signal flow graph and PVSDAT
>>
>>
>>> This is a question probably mostly for Victor Lazzarini...
>>>
>>> Does it make sense to include fsigs in the signal flow graph?
>>>
>>> If so, obviously all fsigs feeding into an inlet have to be the same
>>> format. Beyond that, what is "mixing?" I presume it is just straight
>>> addition of the source fsigs, i.e. complex addition of each sample  
>>> in
>>> the signal frame.
>>>
>>> Thinking about this, I can see where mixing of fsigs may not often
>>> make a whole lot of sense, but having them in the signal flow graph
>>> system would still make sense, in terms of routing fsigs serially  
>>> from
>>> one processor to another in a chain, or routing an fsig from one
>>> source to several different processors in parallel.
>>>
>>> Please advise...
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Gogins
>>> Irreducible Productions
>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in  
>>> SF, CA
>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year.  
>>> Jumpstart your
>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market  
>>> and stay
>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>> now!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF,  
>> CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart  
>> your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market  
>> and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register  
>> now!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> _______________________________________________
>> Csound-devel mailing list
>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart  
> your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and  
> stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register  
> now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> _______________________________________________
> Csound-devel mailing list
> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay 
ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
_______________________________________________
Csound-devel mailing list
Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net

Victor Lazzarini wrote:
> Michael,
> 
> straightforward addition will not really work; mixing like pvsmix is
> the best we can do without getting into too much complication.
> 
> Regards
> 

I would agree; the simplest solution it probably just not to do it in 
this context. Fan-out is OK of course. There probably is a mathematics 
for summing two arbitrarily different signals in  the frequency domain; 
but it is probably if anything more complex than simply inverse FFTing, 
sum, and re-analysing! Maybe when GPU programming in real-time is 
available to us all, we can consider it. The more 'creative" ways of 
summing analysis frames are just that, often cool, signal-dependent, 
artifact-rich, generally unpredictable, redolent of hybridising and so 
on, and probably inappropriate to a neutral bussing system.

Richard Dobson



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay 
ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
_______________________________________________
Csound-devel mailing list
Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net

I wrote:
 >>.... Fan-out is OK of course.


But note that it is unlikely that dynamically swapping signals around 
patchbay style will do anything good; each fsig carries its own frame 
count, required by the synthesis opcode it is ultimately connected to. 
In effect, the birth, lifecycle and death of each fsig is imprinted in 
its dna. It carries a history in a way no time-domain signal does.

Richard Dobson


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay 
ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
_______________________________________________
Csound-devel mailing list
Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net

I understand what you both are saying. For now I will do what pvsmix
does. This will not really be that useful, but at least it will let
the opcodes be used with fsigs for both fan-out and chaining.

On 9/20/09, Richard Dobson  wrote:
> Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>> Michael,
>>
>> straightforward addition will not really work; mixing like pvsmix is
>> the best we can do without getting into too much complication.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>
> I would agree; the simplest solution it probably just not to do it in
> this context. Fan-out is OK of course. There probably is a mathematics
> for summing two arbitrarily different signals in  the frequency domain;
> but it is probably if anything more complex than simply inverse FFTing,
> sum, and re-analysing! Maybe when GPU programming in real-time is
> available to us all, we can consider it. The more 'creative" ways of
> summing analysis frames are just that, often cool, signal-dependent,
> artifact-rich, generally unpredictable, redolent of hybridising and so
> on, and probably inappropriate to a neutral bussing system.
>
> Richard Dobson
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> _______________________________________________
> Csound-devel mailing list
> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>


-- 
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay 
ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
_______________________________________________
Csound-devel mailing list
Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net