I was not ignoring "more in others." In my view, Csound should be a very broad platform that includes the widest possible set of capabilities. It's better to have ALL my wished-for features and ALL your wished-for features, than to have SOME of your wished-for features and all of mine, or SOME of yours and all of mine.

As for my appreciation of your contributions, I think it is very clear to one and all, except maybe you, that it is very real. I don't think anyone has done more to make Csound 5 efficient, bug-free, and clean. Also, I recognize your quickness in adding features requested by others. 

However, my appreciation of your technical and musical contributions does not mean that I do not have real problems with your behavior.

Regards,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
>From: Istvan Varga 
>Sent: Jun 28, 2006 4:21 PM
>To: csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] New Csound distribution
>
>On Wednesday 28 June 2006 21:09, Michael Gogins wrote:
>
>> "Less in some areas" should also be "less areas". Your version of
>> Csound would obviously be technically very finished, but I don't
>> think it would be as broad or feature-rich as the present version.
>
>You seem to have ignored "more in others".
>
>> I certainly recognize your RIGHT to have your own project -- I just
>> don't think it's as good for music in general as having a single
>> branch. By the way, you would not even legally have this right if
>> I and others had not actively lobbied MIT to change the Csound
>> license to LGPL.
>
>Coming up with this argument is as purposeless as if I asked you to
>remove all my previous contributions, because you would not have any
>of them if I did not want to make them available. Because it is already
>LGPL, it is too late for you to go back. I even have the option of
>changing the license of my branch to GPL (as allowed by the terms of
>the LGPL) if I wanted to, so that code cannot be stolen and
>incorporated into the ffitch version; of course, the downside is that
>it limits the use as a library, and some plugins may need to be removed
>due to proprietary dependencies.
>
>> About who is reworking who's code, I think it would be easy to prove
>> from CVS logs that you are being hypocritical.
>
>Well, at least the CVS logs show who (re)worked the most code in
>general, but that is just a minor comment.
>
>> Just because you have made a very real contribution, I wonder if you
>> will not be hurting yourself by starting your own branch. I think you
>> should be asking yourself if you can make as much of a real, usable
>> difference to music by working on your own branch as you could by
>> working with us -- painful though this obviously is.
>
>You again try to imply that my work is of minor significance. Also,
>could you name any real, practical benefits for myself (i.e. not to
>you) when working on the ffitch branch, as compared to working on
>mine ?
>
>> Anyway, your remark implies that you feel unrecognized and unrewarded.
>> As I've said, I don't think you are unrecognized -- certainly, not by
>> me.
>
>Well, I may or may not believe what you state. But reading carefully
>through the comments posted, it does not necessarily seem so.
>
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If you have a separate fork then there is no reason for you to use the
csound-devel mailing list as you have your own csound5-devel.  Apart
from the confusions that produces it is the correct place for your
fork to discuss itself.  This list is for discussions of the
development of the csound Sourceforge project.

==John ffitch

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Also, to avoid confusion, can you you change the name of your
distribution to anything but Csound5, as it is already used by the
current csound development. Call it VargaSound or whatever you
want, but not Csound5.

Victor

At 06:42 29/06/2006, you wrote:
>If you have a separate fork then there is no reason for you to use the
>csound-devel mailing list as you have your own csound5-devel.  Apart
>from the confusions that produces it is the correct place for your
>fork to discuss itself.  This list is for discussions of the
>development of the csound Sourceforge project.
>
>==John ffitch
>
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Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 


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Can anyone tell me what dll's/files I need to distribute with an API 
host so that the end user does not need to install Csound? Is it simply 
every library and .dll that comes in the Csound distributions or can it 
be stripped down a bit? Cheers,

Rory.


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Stripping down might mean excluding some opcodes. Most of
the DLLS will be need for a full system. Things you don't need:
tclcsound.dll, csoundapi~.dll. You might not need _csnd.dll, if
you are not using any of the classes of the 'interfaces' package,
cppSound, CsoundFile, CsoundPerformanceThread etc.

Victor

At 16:13 29/06/2006, you wrote:
>Can anyone tell me what dll's/files I need to distribute with an API
>host so that the end user does not need to install Csound? Is it simply
>every library and .dll that comes in the Csound distributions or can it
>be stripped down a bit? Cheers,
>
>Rory.
>
>
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Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 


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Thanks Victor. Given that some host app's will not let users modify the 
instrument code I guess it is relatively safe to leave out certain dll's 
if they are not called by the Csound instrument.

Rory.


Victor Lazzarini wrote:
> Stripping down might mean excluding some opcodes. Most of
> the DLLS will be need for a full system. Things you don't need:
> tclcsound.dll, csoundapi~.dll. You might not need _csnd.dll, if
> you are not using any of the classes of the 'interfaces' package,
> cppSound, CsoundFile, CsoundPerformanceThread etc.
> 
> Victor
> 
> At 16:13 29/06/2006, you wrote:
>> Can anyone tell me what dll's/files I need to distribute with an API
>> host so that the end user does not need to install Csound? Is it simply
>> every library and .dll that comes in the Csound distributions or can it
>> be stripped down a bit? Cheers,
>>
>> Rory.
>>
>>
>> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
>> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
>> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Csound-devel mailing list
>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
> 
> Victor Lazzarini
> Music Technology Laboratory
> Music Department
> National University of Ireland, Maynooth 
> 
> 
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> 

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> You should not have problems now. I already made the decision to
> maintain a separate fork, and at this point in time I simply cannot
> find any reasons to change that, and consider the issue closed.

I remember when the 'Linux Version' of csound forked away from what
was called the 'canonical version'.  I followed the Linux version,
and invested much time testing and chasing down bugs.  At one point,
I finally had a stable version that did all of what I needed, regarding
midi i/o, and realtime rendering and other things that were at one
time a little tricky on Linux.

Then the Linux fork died.  I used it for a while, but eventually,
the lure of new features and opcodes forced me into starting again
with the 4.x version at the time.  All of the benefit of the work 
that went into the Linux version was effectively lost.  I will not 
follow another fork, and I caution those that would consider it.  

It is a shame that the great effort that is being put into csound
may be divided.  It's no wonder that the great powers on the earth can
not make peace, when a comparatively minute organization of great minds
finds itself squabbling in a manner that befits individuals of far 
fewer years.



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I agree with Tobiah.  I have a lot of appreciation for Istvan's work. 
He's made many significant contributions, not only to the code but also 
in his support for Csound users.  But he is not *more* important than 
John ffitch, Micheal Gogins and the other contributors -- no one 
individual is, it is a team effort.  I've been a professional software 
developer for over 20 years, and if I've learned one thing, it is that a 
team is effective only to the degree that individual contributors keep 
their egos in check.

I will absolutely not use or promote a fork.  I really hope that Istvan 
will reconsider his decision and come back to the team, and that 
whatever issues exist between people are worked out in a mature way on 
all sides.

- Dave


Tobiah wrote:
> I remember when the 'Linux Version' of csound forked away from what
> was called the 'canonical version'.  I followed the Linux version,
> and invested much time testing and chasing down bugs.  At one point,
> I finally had a stable version that did all of what I needed, regarding
> midi i/o, and realtime rendering and other things that were at one
> time a little tricky on Linux.
> 
> Then the Linux fork died.  I used it for a while, but eventually,
> the lure of new features and opcodes forced me into starting again
> with the 4.x version at the time.  All of the benefit of the work 
> that went into the Linux version was effectively lost.  I will not 
> follow another fork, and I caution those that would consider it.  
> 
> It is a shame that the great effort that is being put into csound
> may be divided.  It's no wonder that the great powers on the earth can
> not make peace, when a comparatively minute organization of great minds
> finds itself squabbling in a manner that befits individuals of far 
> fewer years.



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