If you mean: make a release, mark it BETA, and when it is stable, leave the same release number and remove the BETA, that is fine with me. It does the same thing as what I am suggesting, really.

Regards,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
>From: Steven Yi 
>Sent: Dec 13, 2007 11:41 AM
>To: Developer discussions 
>Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] When should next release be?
>
>Hi Victor,
>
>Yes, I think releasing under the same version number would be good but
>have one be beta at first.  After the release we remove the beta  or
>can leave it up, but it shouldn't be confusing to anyone.
>
>Beta releases are extremely important IMO to communicate to users that
>"yes, we this is the one, but could someone try to see if we missed
>anything?".  It also sets expectations.  5.07 was a really rocky
>release with a large amount of complaints that if it was simply marked
>as a beta at first I can almost guarantee it would have been much
>easier.
>
>I would say that for the kind of programming I'm doing for my day job,
>we usually work towards a release and when we think everything is set,
>we then go into a period of heavy testing with a QA team.  That goes
>back and forth until we iron out all regression tests and other tests,
>then when that's cleaned up we do the big release.
>
>I would say that we as developers do a light amount of testing with
>Csound.  We have in the past decided a time to release and then have
>gone and built things and released without first testing what was
>built.  This is largely due to that we feel comfortable releasing
>things since we normally use a privately built version of Csound every
>day for our own musical work (at least, that's what I've been doing).
>The problem here though is that the problems we're really coming
>across are not related to Csound operating incorrectly but rather
>things like the installers not working on someone else's computer
>(i.e. the Python error message continuing to be a problem and not
>being detected correctly on some Windows systems) or libraries missing
>from the installer which is a problem masked by they existing on our
>own systems.
>
>Because these are things we can't necessarily test ourselves and may
>only crop up on other's systems, this is why I'm highly advocating
>going through a round of at least a beta.  It may be the case that
>everything works great, but more often than not there's going to be
>one thing missing or another, and it might not be on all systems
>(maybe OSX is missing a file, or Windows, or Linux).  When everything
>is fine on all systems, we can finally do a non-beta release and
>everyone on all operating systems can refer to the same build number.
>(I have seen in the past some confusion over build numbers being
>different for Windows or OSX versus the others due to an extra build
>being done to fix one small issue for that platform).
>
>This may seem like extra work but I would say it will actually cause
>much less stress to go through an extra beta phase than to go through
>all of the negative reports from users as we got for 5.07.  One small
>problem with the release became blown up into "Csound doesn't install
>anywhere for anyone and is causing problems for humanity" and I really
>think a beta label would have reset those expectations.
>
>That's my thoughts on that.  Regarding Michael's release suggestion
>about unstable and stable, I would say this is not for developers and
>end users are much more familiar with the beta terminology than
>unstable/stable.  The term beta is incredibly prevalent with Web 2.0
>companies and I think that most people will understand that versus
>something which is unstable, which doesn't really convey the idea that
>this beta is supposed to be a release and needs some testing.
>
>steven
>
>
>
>
>
>On Dec 13, 2007 12:03 AM, victor  wrote:
>> While that sounds like a good idea, how would that work out? Would
>> we release it through  sourceforge? Would the fact that we have one
>> beta and one stable release of the same number not cause confusion?
>>
>> Perhaps we should ask some 'power users' to test the beta release rather
>> than have it available to everyone.
>>
>> Victor
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steven Yi" 
>> To: ; "Developer discussions"
>> 
>>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 6:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] When should next release be?
>>
>>
>> Hi Andres,
>>
>> Thanks for bringing that up!  I would like to second that. =)
>>
>> steven
>>
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2007 5:34 PM, Andres Cabrera  wrote:
>> > It would be a good idea -as was discussed- to release first a beta
>> > version for a while befora calling it a stable release.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Andrés
>> >
>> > El mar, 11-12-2007 a las 09:24 -0800, Steven Yi escribió:
>> >
>> > > I was planning on getting to more work on the parser soon but that is
>> > > still not ready for primary usage so should probably be not considered
>> > > for the release.  Otherwise, I am not working on anything at the
>> > > moment that would go on the next release.
>> > >
>> > > On Dec 11, 2007 1:33 AM, victor  wrote:
>> > > > The way things are going, I'd say Feb 1st for me. Or better Jan 30th,
>> > > > as
>> > > > I'd be away that weekend.
>> > > >
>> > > > Victor
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: "Anthony Kozar" 
>> > > > To: "Csound Developer list" 
>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 8:59 AM
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] When should next release be?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > >I am quite busy right now with holiday preparations but I have a
>> > > > >number of
>> > > > > Csound things in a "half-finished state."  I would prefer a later
>> > > > > date (6
>> > > > > Jan at least), since I will be on vacation from Dec 21st to Jan 2nd
>> > > > > making
>> > > > > it difficult to build a release.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The parameters and behavior of the new opcodes that I added need to
>> > > > > be
>> > > > > finalized (as well as which ones should be included!).
>> > > > > Documentation for
>> > > > > these needs to be written or revised and added to the manual.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I would still like to add the no-carry (!) operator to the score
>> > > > > parser.
>> > > > > If
>> > > > > added, it needs to be documented.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Documentation for { and } score opcodes need to be added to the
>> > > > > manual.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I would like to make more corrections to the line counts in the
>> > > > > orchestra
>> > > > > parser and for CSDs.  I do not expect anything close to a perfect
>> > > > > solution
>> > > > > for this release, but I think I can make some important improvements
>> > > > > in
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > next couple of weeks.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > So, I hope to get as much of this done before I leave on the 21st.
>> > > > > It
>> > > > > might
>> > > > > be possible for me to do a little work while on vacation too.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Anthony Kozar
>> > > > > mailing-lists-1001 AT anthonykozar DOT net
>> > > > > http://anthonykozar.net/
>> > > > >
>> > > > > jpff wrote on 12/11/07 3:20 AM:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> The rate of change seems to have slowed, judging by the ChangeLog.
>> > > > >> Would it be a good idea to aim at a release late this year or by
>> > > > >> Twelfth Night (6 Jan 08)?
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> ==John ffitch
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
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It does seem like most of the major issues have been packaging-related.
Having a beta release is fine (though I am not sure it is necessary on OS
9).  I would prefer that they be in a different "release package" on
Sourceforge so that they do not obscure the latest non-beta release.

And off-topic, could people using Gmail or Earthlink "ZOO Mail" try to post
in plain-text, not Base64-encoded UTF-8 ??  I don't know if you can see the
quoted message below the same way that I do, but there seems to be a bug in
Outlook Express on MacOS 9 that prevents linefeeds from being converted to
carriage returns in Base64-encoded messages -- thus running everything
together.

I've noticed this problem with Michael's and Andres' recent posts.  Your
messages have these headers:

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

and in "source mode", the body of the message looks like this:

SWYgeW91IG1lYW46IG1ha2UgYSByZWxlYXNlLCBtYXJrIGl0IEJFVEEsIGFuZCB3aGVuIGl0IGlz
IHN0YWJsZSwgbGVhdmUgdGhlIHNhbWUgcmVsZWFzZSBudW1iZXIgYW5kIHJlbW92ZSB0aGUgQkVU
 
Thanks!

Anthony

Michael Gogins wrote on 12/13/07 12:15 PM:

> If you mean: make a release, mark it BETA, and when it is stable, leave the
> same release number and remove the BETA, that is fine with me. It does the
> same thing as what I am suggesting, really.

Regards,
Mike

-----Original
> Message-----
>From: Steven Yi 
>Sent: Dec 13, 2007 11:41
> AM
>To: Developer discussions 
>Subject:
> Re: [Cs-dev] When should next release be?
>
>Hi Victor,
>
>Yes, I think
> releasing under the same version number would be good but
>have one be beta at
> first.  After the release we remove the beta  or
>can leave it up, but it
> shouldn't be confusing to anyone.
>
>Beta releases are extremely important IMO
> to communicate to users that
>"yes, we this is the one, but could someone try
> to see if we missed
>anything?".  It also sets expectations.  5.07 was a
> really rocky
>release with a large amount of complaints that if it was simply
> marked
>as a beta at first I can almost guarantee it would have been
> much
>easier.
>
>I would say that for the kind of programming I'm doing for my
> day job,
>we usually work towards a release and when we think everything is
> set,
>we then go into a period of heavy testing with a QA team.  That
> goes
>back and forth until we iron out all regression tests and other
> tests,
>then when that's cleaned up we do the big release.
>
>I would say that
> we as developers do a light amount of testing with
>Csound.  We have in the
> past decided a time to release and then have
>gone and built things and
> released without first testing what was
>built.  This is largely due to that
> we feel comfortable releasing
>things since we normally use a privately built
> version of Csound every
>day for our own musical work (at least, that's what
> I've been doing).
>The problem here though is that the problems we're really
> [...]


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Hi Anthony,

I'm not sure what the problem can be... I'm using evolution as mail
client, and there seems to be no option for base64 encoding, and I'm
sending mails as plain text, not html. Can anything else be the problem?

Cheers,
Andrés

El jue, 13-12-2007 a las 14:39 -0500, Anthony Kozar escribió:
> It does seem like most of the major issues have been
> packaging-related.
> Having a beta release is fine (though I am not sure it is necessary on
> OS
> 9).  I would prefer that they be in a different "release package" on
> Sourceforge so that they do not obscure the latest non-beta release.
> 
> And off-topic, could people using Gmail or Earthlink "ZOO Mail" try to
> post
> in plain-text, not Base64-encoded UTF-8 ??  I don't know if you can
> see the
> quoted message below the same way that I do, but there seems to be a
> bug in
> Outlook Express on MacOS 9 that prevents linefeeds from being
> converted to
> carriage returns in Base64-encoded messages -- thus running everything
> together.
> 
> I've noticed this problem with Michael's and Andres' recent posts.
> Your
> messages have these headers:
> 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
> 
> and in "source mode", the body of the message looks like this:
> 
> SWYgeW91IG1lYW46IG1ha2UgYSByZWxlYXNlLCBtYXJrIGl0IEJFVEEsIGFuZCB3aGVuIGl0IGlz
> IHN0YWJsZSwgbGVhdmUgdGhlIHNhbWUgcmVsZWFzZSBudW1iZXIgYW5kIHJlbW92ZSB0aGUgQkVU
>  
> Thanks!
> 
> Anthony
> 
> Michael Gogins wrote on 12/13/07 12:15 PM:
> 
> > If you mean: make a release, mark it BETA, and when it is stable,
> leave the
> > same release number and remove the BETA, that is fine with me. It
> does the
> > same thing as what I am suggesting, really.
> 
> Regards,
> Mike
> 
> -----Original
> > Message-----
> >From: Steven Yi 
> >Sent: Dec 13, 2007 11:41
> > AM
> >To: Developer discussions 
> >Subject:
> > Re: [Cs-dev] When should next release be?
> >
> >Hi Victor,
> >
> >Yes, I think
> > releasing under the same version number would be good but
> >have one be beta at
> > first.  After the release we remove the beta  or
> >can leave it up, but it
> > shouldn't be confusing to anyone.
> >
> >Beta releases are extremely important IMO
> > to communicate to users that
> >"yes, we this is the one, but could someone try
> > to see if we missed
> >anything?".  It also sets expectations.  5.07 was a
> > really rocky
> >release with a large amount of complaints that if it was simply
> > marked
> >as a beta at first I can almost guarantee it would have been
> > much
> >easier.
> >
> >I would say that for the kind of programming I'm doing for my
> > day job,
> >we usually work towards a release and when we think everything is
> > set,
> >we then go into a period of heavy testing with a QA team.  That
> > goes
> >back and forth until we iron out all regression tests and other
> > tests,
> >then when that's cleaned up we do the big release.
> >
> >I would say that
> > we as developers do a light amount of testing with
> >Csound.  We have in the
> > past decided a time to release and then have
> >gone and built things and
> > released without first testing what was
> >built.  This is largely due to that
> > we feel comfortable releasing
> >things since we normally use a privately built
> > version of Csound every
> >day for our own musical work (at least, that's what
> > I've been doing).
> >The problem here though is that the problems we're really
> > [...]
> 
> 
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