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Re: [Cs-dev] sensekey

Date2006-12-08 21:10
From"Art Hunkins"
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
AttachmentsNone  None  
What would also be helpful are normative -b and -B settings for realtime work on various systems. (By normative, I mean what will work out of the box in most situations.)
 
For example, is -b1024 -B4096, the old Istvan standard for Windows, still the recommended norm (for a relatively up-to-date system)?
 
Art Hunkins
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] sensekey

Andres,

The page is very helpful.  Thanks so much for writing it.

You might also include a few more tables in which you calculate for the reader what the latency might be with certain -b -B settings.  And also you might recommend a few combinations that work best for keyboard performance, real-time playback of a complex orchestra without keyboard input, writing to disk.

Also  you are missing a closing paren at the very end after the word denorm.

-dB


On Dec 9, 2006, at 12:00 PM, Andres Cabrera wrote:

Hi Jonathan,
Thanks very much for this information. I've prepared the following page
for inclusion in the manual.
Can you take a look and see if it's accurate and something's missing.
It looks to me like this method should work on all platforms, can other
people try it?

Cheers,
Andrés


Jonathan Murphy wrote:
Hi Art,

First of all, I know what you mean regarding frustration with getting
the right numbers, but I think that I've figured it out. I know that
you have a lot more experience dealing with this than I do, the
following is intended as much as a thinking-out-loud draft for the
manual as an explanation, hence the "for beginners" tone. Perhaps
others could point out things that aren't clear or are incorrect, and
then I'd be happy to do a rewrite for the manual.

I've been finding lately that the simplest solution is to set
ksmps to a value that I'm happy with (tradeoff between quality and
performance), and then just set -b to a negative power of two, without
adjusting -B at all. This puts everything in sync, and to get the
optimal values just start with something you think is going to be too
low, ie -1, and then continue "upwards", -2, -4 and so on, until you
stop getting x-runs. The real value of -b will be the absolute value
of -b * ksmps.

Now you can start reducing the hardware buffer (-B). Just bring it down
from the default (16384 on windows), halving it each time, until you
start to get x-runs again. At which point of course go back. This is
assuming that you have a 16-bit soundcard. If you have a 24-bit
soundcard, then -B should be 3/2, or 3 times -b, rather than 2 or 4
times. I think that the main reason why this is tricky is that csound
works with floats, or doubles whereas most soundcards are 16 or
24-bit. -b is the internal buffer, so it's dealing with the 32 or
64-bit side of things, whereas -B is the hardware buffer, so it's
dealing with the 16 or 24-bit side. The csound default for floats is
-B = 4 * -b. This is a sane value for a 16 bit card. You can usually
get away with -B = 2 * -b, but this is the absolute minimum. For
example, if you set -b1024 -B2048, csound will tell you that:

"audio (is) buffered in 1024 sample-frame blocks" and that it is
"writing 4096-byte blocks to dac"

4096 bytes is 32768 bits. 32768/32 = 1024, our sample-frame size, 1024
* 32/16 = 2048, our buffer size. Were we to reduce the value of -B, we
would need to reduce the value of -b by a corresponding amount in
order to continue to write 16-bit integers to dac. The minimum size of
-b is (-B * bitrate)/32. That is to say that the minimum ratio of -b
to -B should be:

16-bit: 1:2
24-bit: 2:3
32-bit: 1:1

While there is no theoretical maximum ratio, it makes no sense to have
a very high ratio here, as the software buffer has to fill the
hardware buffer before returning, which if the ratio is high, will
take a long time, defeating the purpose of setting a small value for -b. 

Anyway, to sum up, the value of -b is something that will need to be
varied depending on the complexity of the instrument you're working
with, but because it's intimately related to the value of ksmps, it's
better to synchronise it with ksmps and go from there. One way to do
it is to decide how long the release on your envelopes might need to
be at maximum (for desired effect), set the release on all envelopes
to maximum, give yourself a generous value for -b,  and then play. If
it seizes up, double ksmps, repeat until smooth, then bring the value
of -b down as far as possible.

The value of -B is primarily determined by operating system and
soundcard. Figure out (using above method) how low you can go, and
just stick with that value (or one higher for "headroom"), then if you
have problems you'll know that it's probably because of an
inappropriate value for ksmps, too low a value for -b, or denormals,
which is really more than enough to have to sort through anyway.

Jonathan.

"Art Hunkins" <abhunkin@earthlink.net> writes:


I finally discovered what was causing my sensekey "zipper" noise: bad buffer
size (-b).

Recently I've been working with -b128 and -B8192, since latency was no
issue, and I want to avoid underruns (breakup) at all cost.

It turns out that a low value for -b causes zipper noise with sensekey. The
attached file represents a simple test anyone can try. Real time, it
generates a sine wave, while sensekey sits there (always "on") just
"listening" and doing nothing. If you press a key with -b set too low,
there's the "zipper". With -b higher, no zipper.

For me (on WinME), it takes -b1024 to get absolutely no stutter. -b512 gets
an occasional glitch, -b256 is pretty bad, and -b128 is terrible. (Values
for -B seem not to matter here.)

It might well be worth an alert in the sensekey doc to the effect that
sensekey is especially sensitive to the value of -b. Setting -b higher can
avoid zipper noise.

As an aside, I was surprised at this; it seems counterintuitive to me. If
anyone has an explanation, I'd love to hear it.

This also reminds me that it would be very nice to have - in the
documentation - a *thorough presentation* (in terms the average person might
understand) of -b and -B - especially focussing on the various ill effects
(in real time) of setting them too high or low, or of an improper
relationship between the two values. Looking back over an extensive period
of work in real time Csound, I can't think of another issue that has caused
me equal frustration and grief. (Obviously it hasn't stopped yet.)

Art Hunkins


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Optimizing Audio I/O Latency
Prev  Using Csound  Next

Optimizing Audio I/O Latency

To achieve the lowest latency possible without audio break ups, a combination of variables needs to be tweaked. The final values will be platform and system dependent, and will also depend on the complexity of the audio calculations performed. You need to adjust ksmps in the orchestra, as well as the software (-b) and harware buffer (-B) sizes.

Usually the simplest solution is the following:

  1. Set ksmps to a value with a good tradeoff between quality and performance, without adjusting -B at all.

  2. Set -b to a negative power of two of this value.

    To get the optimal values, start with something you think is going to be too low, ie -1, and then continue "upwards", -2, -4 and so on, until you stop getting x-runs (glitches). The real value of -b will be the absolute value of -b * ksmps.

  3. Reduce the hardware buffer (-B). Bring it down from the default (1024 on Linux, 4096 on Mac OS X, 16384 on Windows), halving it each time, until you start to get x-runs (glitches) again. Then take it back up again until performance is continuous.


This process assumes you have a 16-bit soundcard. If you have a 24-bit soundcard, then -B should be 3/2, or 3 times -b, rather than 2 or 4 times. Csound works with 32-bit floats, or 64-bit doubles whereas most soundcards are 16 or 24-bit integer. -b is the internal buffer, so it's dealing with the 32 or 64-bit side of things, whereas -B is the hardware buffer, so it's dealing with the 16 or 24-bit side. The csound default for floats is -B = 4 * -b. This is a sane value for a 16 bit card. You can usually get away with -B = 2 * -b, but this is the absolute minimum. For example, if you set -b1024 -B2048, csound will tell you that: 

audio (is) buffered in 1024 sample-frame blocks
writing 4096-byte blocks to dac


4096 bytes is 32768 bits. 32768/32 = 1024, our sample-frame size, 1024 * 32/16 = 2048, our buffer size. Were we to reduce the value of -B, we would need to reduce the value of -b by a corresponding amount in order to continue to write 16-bit integers to dac. The minimum size of -b is (-B * bitrate)/32. That is to say that the minimum ratio of -b to -B should be:

  • 16-bit: 1:2
  • 24-bit: 2:3
  • 32-bit: 1:1


While there is no theoretical maximum ratio, it makes no sense to have a very high ratio here, as the software buffer has to fill the hardware buffer before returning. If the ratio is high, it will take a long time, defeating the purpose of setting a small value for -b.


The value of -b is something that will need to be varied depending on the complexity of the instrument you're working with, but because it's intimately related to the value of ksmps, it's better to synchronise it with ksmps and go from there. One way to do it is to decide how long the release on your envelopes might need to be at maximum (for desired effect), set the release on all envelopes to maximum, give yourself a generous value for -b, and then play. If it breaks up, double ksmps, repeat until smooth, then bring the value of -b down as far as possible.


The value of -B is primarily determined by operating system and soundcard. Figure out (using above method) how low you can go, and with that value (or one higher for safety). If you have problems you'll know that it's probably because of an inappropriate value for ksmps, too low a value for -b, or denormals (see denorm.


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Date2006-12-11 01:44
From"Dr. Richard Boulanger"
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
AttachmentsNone  None  
Exactly,

I agree.  Some suggested settings - sr, kr, -b -B for various applications would be helpful - especially to the beginner.

-dB

On Dec 8, 2006, at 4:10 PM, Art Hunkins wrote:

What would also be helpful are normative -b and -B settings for realtime work on various systems. (By normative, I mean what will work out of the box in most situations.)
 
For example, is -b1024 -B4096, the old Istvan standard for Windows, still the recommended norm (for a relatively up-to-date system)?
 
Art Hunkins
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] sensekey

Andres,

The page is very helpful.  Thanks so much for writing it.

You might also include a few more tables in which you calculate for the reader what the latency might be with certain -b -B settings.  And also you might recommend a few combinations that work best for keyboard performance, real-time playback of a complex orchestra without keyboard input, writing to disk.

Also  you are missing a closing paren at the very end after the word denorm.

-dB


On Dec 9, 2006, at 12:00 PM, Andres Cabrera wrote:

Hi Jonathan,
Thanks very much for this information. I've prepared the following page
for inclusion in the manual.
Can you take a look and see if it's accurate and something's missing.
It looks to me like this method should work on all platforms, can other
people try it?

Cheers,
Andrés


Jonathan Murphy wrote:
Hi Art,

First of all, I know what you mean regarding frustration with getting
the right numbers, but I think that I've figured it out. I know that
you have a lot more experience dealing with this than I do, the
following is intended as much as a thinking-out-loud draft for the
manual as an explanation, hence the "for beginners" tone. Perhaps
others could point out things that aren't clear or are incorrect, and
then I'd be happy to do a rewrite for the manual.

I've been finding lately that the simplest solution is to set
ksmps to a value that I'm happy with (tradeoff between quality and
performance), and then just set -b to a negative power of two, without
adjusting -B at all. This puts everything in sync, and to get the
optimal values just start with something you think is going to be too
low, ie -1, and then continue "upwards", -2, -4 and so on, until you
stop getting x-runs. The real value of -b will be the absolute value
of -b * ksmps.

Now you can start reducing the hardware buffer (-B). Just bring it down
from the default (16384 on windows), halving it each time, until you
start to get x-runs again. At which point of course go back. This is
assuming that you have a 16-bit soundcard. If you have a 24-bit
soundcard, then -B should be 3/2, or 3 times -b, rather than 2 or 4
times. I think that the main reason why this is tricky is that csound
works with floats, or doubles whereas most soundcards are 16 or
24-bit. -b is the internal buffer, so it's dealing with the 32 or
64-bit side of things, whereas -B is the hardware buffer, so it's
dealing with the 16 or 24-bit side. The csound default for floats is
-B = 4 * -b. This is a sane value for a 16 bit card. You can usually
get away with -B = 2 * -b, but this is the absolute minimum. For
example, if you set -b1024 -B2048, csound will tell you that:

"audio (is) buffered in 1024 sample-frame blocks" and that it is
"writing 4096-byte blocks to dac"

4096 bytes is 32768 bits. 32768/32 = 1024, our sample-frame size, 1024
* 32/16 = 2048, our buffer size. Were we to reduce the value of -B, we
would need to reduce the value of -b by a corresponding amount in
order to continue to write 16-bit integers to dac. The minimum size of
-b is (-B * bitrate)/32. That is to say that the minimum ratio of -b
to -B should be:

16-bit: 1:2
24-bit: 2:3
32-bit: 1:1

While there is no theoretical maximum ratio, it makes no sense to have
a very high ratio here, as the software buffer has to fill the
hardware buffer before returning, which if the ratio is high, will
take a long time, defeating the purpose of setting a small value for -b. 

Anyway, to sum up, the value of -b is something that will need to be
varied depending on the complexity of the instrument you're working
with, but because it's intimately related to the value of ksmps, it's
better to synchronise it with ksmps and go from there. One way to do
it is to decide how long the release on your envelopes might need to
be at maximum (for desired effect), set the release on all envelopes
to maximum, give yourself a generous value for -b,  and then play. If
it seizes up, double ksmps, repeat until smooth, then bring the value
of -b down as far as possible.

The value of -B is primarily determined by operating system and
soundcard. Figure out (using above method) how low you can go, and
just stick with that value (or one higher for "headroom"), then if you
have problems you'll know that it's probably because of an
inappropriate value for ksmps, too low a value for -b, or denormals,
which is really more than enough to have to sort through anyway.

Jonathan.

"Art Hunkins" <abhunkin@earthlink.net> writes:


I finally discovered what was causing my sensekey "zipper" noise: bad buffer
size (-b).

Recently I've been working with -b128 and -B8192, since latency was no
issue, and I want to avoid underruns (breakup) at all cost.

It turns out that a low value for -b causes zipper noise with sensekey. The
attached file represents a simple test anyone can try. Real time, it
generates a sine wave, while sensekey sits there (always "on") just
"listening" and doing nothing. If you press a key with -b set too low,
there's the "zipper". With -b higher, no zipper.

For me (on WinME), it takes -b1024 to get absolutely no stutter. -b512 gets
an occasional glitch, -b256 is pretty bad, and -b128 is terrible. (Values
for -B seem not to matter here.)

It might well be worth an alert in the sensekey doc to the effect that
sensekey is especially sensitive to the value of -b. Setting -b higher can
avoid zipper noise.

As an aside, I was surprised at this; it seems counterintuitive to me. If
anyone has an explanation, I'd love to hear it.

This also reminds me that it would be very nice to have - in the
documentation - a *thorough presentation* (in terms the average person might
understand) of -b and -B - especially focussing on the various ill effects
(in real time) of setting them too high or low, or of an improper
relationship between the two values. Looking back over an extensive period
of work in real time Csound, I can't think of another issue that has caused
me equal frustration and grief. (Obviously it hasn't stopped yet.)

Art Hunkins


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Optimizing Audio I/O Latency
Prev Using Csound Next

Optimizing Audio I/O Latency

To achieve the lowest latency possible without audio break ups, a combination of variables needs to be tweaked. The final values will be platform and system dependent, and will also depend on the complexity of the audio calculations performed. You need to adjust ksmps in the orchestra, as well as the software (-b) and harware buffer (-B) sizes.

Usually the simplest solution is the following:

  1. Set ksmps to a value with a good tradeoff between quality and performance, without adjusting -B at all.

  2. Set -b to a negative power of two of this value.

    To get the optimal values, start with something you think is going to be too low, ie -1, and then continue "upwards", -2, -4 and so on, until you stop getting x-runs (glitches). The real value of -b will be the absolute value of -b * ksmps.

  3. Reduce the hardware buffer (-B). Bring it down from the default (1024 on Linux, 4096 on Mac OS X, 16384 on Windows), halving it each time, until you start to get x-runs (glitches) again. Then take it back up again until performance is continuous.


This process assumes you have a 16-bit soundcard. If you have a 24-bit soundcard, then -B should be 3/2, or 3 times -b, rather than 2 or 4 times. Csound works with 32-bit floats, or 64-bit doubles whereas most soundcards are 16 or 24-bit integer. -b is the internal buffer, so it's dealing with the 32 or 64-bit side of things, whereas -B is the hardware buffer, so it's dealing with the 16 or 24-bit side. The csound default for floats is -B = 4 * -b. This is a sane value for a 16 bit card. You can usually get away with -B = 2 * -b, but this is the absolute minimum. For example, if you set -b1024 -B2048, csound will tell you that: 

audio (is) buffered in 1024 sample-frame blocks
writing 4096-byte blocks to dac


4096 bytes is 32768 bits. 32768/32 = 1024, our sample-frame size, 1024 * 32/16 = 2048, our buffer size. Were we to reduce the value of -B, we would need to reduce the value of -b by a corresponding amount in order to continue to write 16-bit integers to dac. The minimum size of -b is (-B * bitrate)/32. That is to say that the minimum ratio of -b to -B should be:

  • 16-bit: 1:2
  • 24-bit: 2:3
  • 32-bit: 1:1


While there is no theoretical maximum ratio, it makes no sense to have a very high ratio here, as the software buffer has to fill the hardware buffer before returning. If the ratio is high, it will take a long time, defeating the purpose of setting a small value for -b.


The value of -b is something that will need to be varied depending on the complexity of the instrument you're working with, but because it's intimately related to the value of ksmps, it's better to synchronise it with ksmps and go from there. One way to do it is to decide how long the release on your envelopes might need to be at maximum (for desired effect), set the release on all envelopes to maximum, give yourself a generous value for -b, and then play. If it breaks up, double ksmps, repeat until smooth, then bring the value of -b down as far as possible.


The value of -B is primarily determined by operating system and soundcard. Figure out (using above method) how low you can go, and with that value (or one higher for safety). If you have problems you'll know that it's probably because of an inappropriate value for ksmps, too low a value for -b, or denormals (see denorm.


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Date2006-12-11 08:15
Fromjpff
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
regarding values for sr and kr, the code has defaults that were
determined after a net-discussion.  Current values are
           sr = 44100
           kr = 4410

We have not discussed suitable defaults for -b and -B as far as i can remember
==John ffitch

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Date2006-12-11 13:51
From"Dr. Richard Boulanger"
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Hi John,

Hope you are well.

Complimentary defaults for this sr and kr would be good to decide.

-Rick

On Dec 11, 2006, at 3:15 AM, jpff wrote:

> regarding values for sr and kr, the code has defaults that were
> determined after a net-discussion.  Current values are
>            sr = 44100
>            kr = 4410
>
> We have not discussed suitable defaults for -b and -B as far as i  
> can remember
> ==John ffitch
>
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Date2006-12-12 06:06
FromJonathan Murphy
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
The other defaults, according to the manual (CommandFlags.html) are:

Linux: -b 256  -B 1024
Mac:   -b 1024 -B 4096
Win:   -b 4096 -B 16384

It's occurred to me that this presents a conundrum.

For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
ksmps. If the default ksmps is 10, then none of the other defaults are
appropriate. However, in terms of 16-bit audio, the defaults for -b
and -B are appropriate, and make much more sense than if they were
geared towards a ksmps of 10. What I mean is this:

sr = 44100
ksmps = 10

The user wants full duplex operation, so they set -b 100, -B 400. With
my onboard soundcard, which uses the old but extremely common AC97
codec, I can't use this buffer size. JACK uses the alsa api to query
the card as to actual capabilities, and won't run with a buffer size
indivisible by 16. This seems to me to be a simple, efficient usage of
available resources. I suspect that what the codec really does, once the
sample-rate and time source are set, is just to count samples, but
that it counts them in bytes, or words, for the sake of efficiency.
If I use the alsa plugin, it lets me get away with -B 400, but I'm
pretty sure that what's really going on is that it's secretly changing
the buffer size to 512, rather than failing over 400. This would
imply, further, that csound is not going to be getting the expected
sample-frame size from the adc, and that this is going to cause
problems, because the real size is no longer going to be an integer
multiple of ksmps.

Does this make sense? If so, if anyone else can find the time to run
some tests (preferably using JACK, as it's the most reliable) it would
be really helpful in terms of being able to present accurate
information. 

If it turns out that this is in fact the case, then perhaps 
sr = 48000
kr = 8
might be a better default? 

Thanks in advance, and I hope that I'm wrong.

Jonathan.

jpff  writes:

> regarding values for sr and kr, the code has defaults that were
> determined after a net-discussion.  Current values are
>            sr = 44100
>            kr = 4410
>
> We have not discussed suitable defaults for -b and -B as far as i can remember
> ==John ffitch
>
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Date2006-12-12 09:32
FromVictor Lazzarini
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
I'm not so sure this is the case everywhere. It is not on OSX as far
as I can remember and with win MME. In fact the only time I saw this
being an issue is with Windows ASIO.

>For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
>ksmps.

Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 


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Date2006-12-12 09:38
FromDavid Akbari
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
...or with the Jack driver.


-David

On Dec 12, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:

> I'm not so sure this is the case everywhere. It is not on OSX as far
> as I can remember and with win MME. In fact the only time I saw this
> being an issue is with Windows ASIO.
>
>> For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
>> ksmps.


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Date2006-12-12 10:06
FromJonathan Murphy
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Thanks for the responses. I hope that you're both correct, however I
get error messages like this:

 *** rtjack: period size (-b) must be an integer multiple of ksmps

Jonathan.

David Akbari  writes:

> ...or with the Jack driver.
>
>
> -David
>
> On Dec 12, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>
>> I'm not so sure this is the case everywhere. It is not on OSX as far
>> as I can remember and with win MME. In fact the only time I saw this
>> being an issue is with Windows ASIO.
>>
>>> For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
>>> ksmps.
>
>
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Date2006-12-12 10:10
FromVictor Lazzarini
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
yes. In any case, there is no harm in making all defaults to power-of-two,
I think.

I suggest

ksmps=32

-b1024 -B2048

for all platforms.

Victor


At 09:38 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>...or with the Jack driver.
>
>
>-David
>
>On Dec 12, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>
> > I'm not so sure this is the case everywhere. It is not on OSX as far
> > as I can remember and with win MME. In fact the only time I saw this
> > being an issue is with Windows ASIO.
> >
> >> For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
> >> ksmps.
>
>
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Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
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Date2006-12-12 10:14
FromJonathan Murphy
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Right, but the problem is that 44100 is not divisible by 32, or any
^2 higher than 4. 

Jonathan.


Victor Lazzarini  writes:

> yes. In any case, there is no harm in making all defaults to power-of-two,
> I think.
>
> I suggest
>
> ksmps=32
>
> -b1024 -B2048
>
> for all platforms.
>
> Victor
>
>
> At 09:38 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>>...or with the Jack driver.
>>
>>
>>-David
>>
>>On Dec 12, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>>
>> > I'm not so sure this is the case everywhere. It is not on OSX as far
>> > as I can remember and with win MME. In fact the only time I saw this
>> > being an issue is with Windows ASIO.
>> >
>> >> For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
>> >> ksmps.
>>
>>
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> Victor Lazzarini
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> Music Department
> National University of Ireland, Maynooth 
>
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Date2006-12-12 10:33
FromDavid Akbari
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Sorry if I was unclear. I re-read my response and it seems like I'm  
agreeing with the "is not the case everywhere" comment.

Actually I was trying to point out that the Jack driver requires  
integer multiples of ksmps. Sorry for the confusion. I meant to respond  
to

>>>> For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
>>>> ksmps.


-David

On Dec 12, 2006, at 4:06 AM, Jonathan Murphy wrote:

>
> Thanks for the responses. I hope that you're both correct, however I
> get error messages like this:
>
>  *** rtjack: period size (-b) must be an integer multiple of ksmps
>
> Jonathan.
>
> David Akbari  writes:
>
>> ...or with the Jack driver.
>>
>>
>> -David
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not so sure this is the case everywhere. It is not on OSX as far
>>> as I can remember and with win MME. In fact the only time I saw this
>>> being an issue is with Windows ASIO.
>>>
>>>> For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
>>>> ksmps.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ---
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Date2006-12-12 11:28
FromJonathan Murphy
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Hi David,

Thanks for the clarification. I was beginning to question my
sanity. If you get a chance, could you try to run JACK using your
onboard soundcard with a setting of -p100?

Thanks,
Jonathan.

David Akbari  writes:

> Sorry if I was unclear. I re-read my response and it seems like I'm  
> agreeing with the "is not the case everywhere" comment.
>
> Actually I was trying to point out that the Jack driver requires  
> integer multiples of ksmps. Sorry for the confusion. I meant to respond  
> to
>
>>>>> For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
>>>>> ksmps.
>
>
> -David
>
> On Dec 12, 2006, at 4:06 AM, Jonathan Murphy wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks for the responses. I hope that you're both correct, however I
>> get error messages like this:
>>
>>  *** rtjack: period size (-b) must be an integer multiple of ksmps
>>
>> Jonathan.
>>
>> David Akbari  writes:
>>
>>> ...or with the Jack driver.
>>>
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>> On Dec 12, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not so sure this is the case everywhere. It is not on OSX as far
>>>> as I can remember and with win MME. In fact the only time I saw this
>>>> being an issue is with Windows ASIO.
>>>>
>>>>> For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
>>>>> ksmps.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>> ---
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Date2006-12-12 11:32
Fromjpff
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
But 32 is not a devisor of 44100
==John ffitch

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Date2006-12-12 11:49
FromDavid Akbari
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Hi Jonathan,

Of course.

Here's the output:

flag defaults: csound -s -otest -b1024 -B4096 -m135
Csound Command ERROR:   unknown flag -p

and the .csd file I was using [1]. Note that when simply omitting the 
`-p` flag, everything works as expected. Is this a new flag recently 
added to CVS? What does it do?

[1]


-odac -iadc -d -p100 -+rtaudio=jack -+jack_client=ptest.csd 
-+rtmidi=null



sr	=	44100
ksmps	=	128
nchnls	=	2

	instr	1

al	oscil	10000, 262.1, 1

	outs	al, al

	endin


f1	0	16384	10	1

i1	0	10

e




-David

On Dec 12, 2006, at 5:28 AM, Jonathan Murphy wrote:

>
> Hi David,
>
> Thanks for the clarification. I was beginning to question my
> sanity. If you get a chance, could you try to run JACK using your
> onboard soundcard with a setting of -p100?
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan.
>
> David Akbari  writes:
>
>> Sorry if I was unclear. I re-read my response and it seems like I'm
>> agreeing with the "is not the case everywhere" comment.
>>
>> Actually I was trying to point out that the Jack driver requires
>> integer multiples of ksmps. Sorry for the confusion. I meant to 
>> respond
>> to
>>
>>>>>> For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
>>>>>> ksmps.
>>
>>
>> -David
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2006, at 4:06 AM, Jonathan Murphy wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the responses. I hope that you're both correct, however I
>>> get error messages like this:
>>>
>>>  *** rtjack: period size (-b) must be an integer multiple of ksmps
>>>
>>> Jonathan.
>>>
>>> David Akbari  writes:
>>>
>>>> ...or with the Jack driver.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 12, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not so sure this is the case everywhere. It is not on OSX as 
>>>>> far
>>>>> as I can remember and with win MME. In fact the only time I saw 
>>>>> this
>>>>> being an issue is with Windows ASIO.
>>>>>
>>>>>> For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
>>>>>> ksmps.


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Date2006-12-12 11:58
FromJonathan Murphy
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Thanks, but what I meant was to run JACK, not Csound! One of the
arguments to jackd is -p N, where N is the period size in sample
frames. Just open up qjackctl (assuming that you use it), and manually
enter 100 as the value for Frames/Period, then try to start
JACK. Csound can work with these numbers, what I'm trying to establish
is whether a bog standard, 16-bit soundcard can do likewise.

Thanks again,
Jonathan.

David Akbari  writes:

> Hi Jonathan,
>
> Of course.
>
> Here's the output:
>
> flag defaults: csound -s -otest -b1024 -B4096 -m135
> Csound Command ERROR:   unknown flag -p
>
> and the .csd file I was using [1]. Note that when simply omitting the 
> `-p` flag, everything works as expected. Is this a new flag recently 
> added to CVS? What does it do?
>
> [1]
> 
> 
> -odac -iadc -d -p100 -+rtaudio=jack -+jack_client=ptest.csd 
> -+rtmidi=null
> 
> 
>
> sr	=	44100
> ksmps	=	128
> nchnls	=	2
>
> 	instr	1
>
> al	oscil	10000, 262.1, 1
>
> 	outs	al, al
>
> 	endin
> 
> 
> f1	0	16384	10	1
>
> i1	0	10
>
> e
> 
> 
>
>
> -David
>
> On Dec 12, 2006, at 5:28 AM, Jonathan Murphy wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> Thanks for the clarification. I was beginning to question my
>> sanity. If you get a chance, could you try to run JACK using your
>> onboard soundcard with a setting of -p100?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jonathan.
>>
>> David Akbari  writes:
>>
>>> Sorry if I was unclear. I re-read my response and it seems like I'm
>>> agreeing with the "is not the case everywhere" comment.
>>>
>>> Actually I was trying to point out that the Jack driver requires
>>> integer multiples of ksmps. Sorry for the confusion. I meant to 
>>> respond
>>> to
>>>
>>>>>>> For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
>>>>>>> ksmps.
>>>
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>> On Dec 12, 2006, at 4:06 AM, Jonathan Murphy wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the responses. I hope that you're both correct, however I
>>>> get error messages like this:
>>>>
>>>>  *** rtjack: period size (-b) must be an integer multiple of ksmps
>>>>
>>>> Jonathan.
>>>>
>>>> David Akbari  writes:
>>>>
>>>>> ...or with the Jack driver.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 12, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not so sure this is the case everywhere. It is not on OSX as 
>>>>>> far
>>>>>> as I can remember and with win MME. In fact the only time I saw 
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> being an issue is with Windows ASIO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For full duplex operation, -b needs to be an integer multiple of
>>>>>>> ksmps.
>
>
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Date2006-12-12 12:03
FromVictor Lazzarini
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
How important is that ksmps divides 44100? I did not think
that was the matter.

At 11:32 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>But 32 is not a devisor of 44100
>==John ffitch
>
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Date2006-12-12 12:33
FromJonathan Murphy
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Crucial.

Victor Lazzarini  writes:

> How important is that ksmps divides 44100? I did not think
> that was the matter.
>
> At 11:32 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>>But 32 is not a devisor of 44100
>>==John ffitch
>>
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> Victor Lazzarini
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> National University of Ireland, Maynooth 
>
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Date2006-12-12 12:49
From"Steven Yi"
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
AttachmentsNone  
Date2006-12-12 12:54
FromJonathan Murphy
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
According to the manual ksmps must equal sr/kr. If sr = 44100 and the
AC97 codec can't handle values that are not multiples of 8, then in
terms of this codec (which is used, for example, by the OLPC project),
the Csound defaults won't work for rt audio in.

Jonathan.

"Steven Yi"  writes:

> I actually thought it wasn't a factor. ksmps is what the size of arate
> vars are and how many samples is advanced at a time per k-loop.  While
> the sampling rate is a nice whole number per second, I didn't think it
> ever really mattered if it divides into it or not and didn't affect
> clock rates or anything hardware related.  I've also had it in my head
> that power-of-two was best for ksmps and buffers, and remember
> experiencing much better performance using a power-of-two setting that
> was smaller in ksmps than one larger that wasn't power-of-two.
>
> I have no idea about the Jack driver and the error message posted
> seemed to only imply a relationship between -b and ksmps, not anything
> with sr.
>
> (Sorry if I've missed something but I wasn't following this discussion
> too carefully so please correct me if I'm wrong).
>
> steven
>
>
> On 12/12/06, Jonathan Murphy  wrote:
>>
>> Crucial.
>>
>> Victor Lazzarini  writes:
>>
>> > How important is that ksmps divides 44100? I did not think
>> > that was the matter.
>> >
>> > At 11:32 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>> >>But 32 is not a devisor of 44100
>> >>==John ffitch
>> >>
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>> >
>> >
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Date2006-12-12 13:03
FromVictor Lazzarini
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
yep, but kr can be anything, afaik.

At 12:54 12/12/2006, you wrote:

>According to the manual ksmps must equal sr/kr. If sr = 44100 and the
>AC97 codec can't handle values that are not multiples of 8, then in
>terms of this codec (which is used, for example, by the OLPC project),
>the Csound defaults won't work for rt audio in.
>
>Jonathan.
>
>"Steven Yi"  writes:
>
> > I actually thought it wasn't a factor. ksmps is what the size of arate
> > vars are and how many samples is advanced at a time per k-loop.  While
> > the sampling rate is a nice whole number per second, I didn't think it
> > ever really mattered if it divides into it or not and didn't affect
> > clock rates or anything hardware related.  I've also had it in my head
> > that power-of-two was best for ksmps and buffers, and remember
> > experiencing much better performance using a power-of-two setting that
> > was smaller in ksmps than one larger that wasn't power-of-two.
> >
> > I have no idea about the Jack driver and the error message posted
> > seemed to only imply a relationship between -b and ksmps, not anything
> > with sr.
> >
> > (Sorry if I've missed something but I wasn't following this discussion
> > too carefully so please correct me if I'm wrong).
> >
> > steven
> >
> >
> > On 12/12/06, Jonathan Murphy  wrote:
> >>
> >> Crucial.
> >>
> >> Victor Lazzarini  writes:
> >>
> >> > How important is that ksmps divides 44100? I did not think
> >> > that was the matter.
> >> >
> >> > At 11:32 12/12/2006, you wrote:
> >> >>But 32 is not a devisor of 44100
> >> >>==John ffitch
> >> >>
> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ----
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> >> > Victor Lazzarini
> >> > Music Technology Laboratory
> >> > Music Department
> >> > National University of Ireland, Maynooth
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 
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Date2006-12-12 13:06
FromJonathan Murphy
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Shouldn't it be an integer? If sr = 44100 and ksmps = 32 then kr = 1378.125.

Victor Lazzarini  writes:

> yep, but kr can be anything, afaik.
>
> At 12:54 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>
>>According to the manual ksmps must equal sr/kr. If sr = 44100 and the
>>AC97 codec can't handle values that are not multiples of 8, then in
>>terms of this codec (which is used, for example, by the OLPC project),
>>the Csound defaults won't work for rt audio in.
>>
>>Jonathan.
>>
>>"Steven Yi"  writes:
>>
>> > I actually thought it wasn't a factor. ksmps is what the size of arate
>> > vars are and how many samples is advanced at a time per k-loop.  While
>> > the sampling rate is a nice whole number per second, I didn't think it
>> > ever really mattered if it divides into it or not and didn't affect
>> > clock rates or anything hardware related.  I've also had it in my head
>> > that power-of-two was best for ksmps and buffers, and remember
>> > experiencing much better performance using a power-of-two setting that
>> > was smaller in ksmps than one larger that wasn't power-of-two.
>> >
>> > I have no idea about the Jack driver and the error message posted
>> > seemed to only imply a relationship between -b and ksmps, not anything
>> > with sr.
>> >
>> > (Sorry if I've missed something but I wasn't following this discussion
>> > too carefully so please correct me if I'm wrong).
>> >
>> > steven
>> >
>> >
>> > On 12/12/06, Jonathan Murphy  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Crucial.
>> >>
>> >> Victor Lazzarini  writes:
>> >>
>> >> > How important is that ksmps divides 44100? I did not think
>> >> > that was the matter.
>> >> >
>> >> > At 11:32 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>> >> >>But 32 is not a devisor of 44100
>> >> >>==John ffitch
>> >> >>
>> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ----
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>> >> >>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>> >> >
>> >> > Victor Lazzarini
>> >> > Music Technology Laboratory
>> >> > Music Department
>> >> > National University of Ireland, Maynooth
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > 
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Date2006-12-12 13:48
FromRichard Dobson
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Hitherto, at least, it has never mattered if kr was an integer or not. 
Indeed I recall making experiemnts to verifyt that very question years 
ago. One can use kr and ksmps in the orchestra for whatever purposes, 
and of course all vars in Csound are represented as floats anyway. From 
my memory, the only issue was to ensure that Csound's initial validation 
of sr/kr=ksmps worked, i.e. was not flummoxed by numerical 
trancation/rounding issues.

I cannot say if Csound5 requires kr to be an integer, not being in the 
loop with respect to the sources these days, but it would surprise me, 
and I would be led to question it.

Richard Dobson


Jonathan Murphy wrote:
> Shouldn't it be an integer? If sr = 44100 and ksmps = 32 then kr = 1378.125.
> 
> Victor Lazzarini  writes:
> 
> 
>>yep, but kr can be anything, afaik.


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Date2006-12-12 13:48
FromVictor Lazzarini
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
No kr can be anything. In fact you don't need to set it,
you can leave csound to work it for itself (that's what I have been
doing lately). ksmps needs to be integral.

At 13:06 12/12/2006, you wrote:

>Shouldn't it be an integer? If sr = 44100 and ksmps = 32 then kr = 1378.125.
>
>Victor Lazzarini  writes:
>
> > yep, but kr can be anything, afaik.
> >
> > At 12:54 12/12/2006, you wrote:
> >
> >>According to the manual ksmps must equal sr/kr. If sr = 44100 and the
> >>AC97 codec can't handle values that are not multiples of 8, then in
> >>terms of this codec (which is used, for example, by the OLPC project),
> >>the Csound defaults won't work for rt audio in.
> >>
> >>Jonathan.
> >>
> >>"Steven Yi"  writes:
> >>
> >> > I actually thought it wasn't a factor. ksmps is what the size of arate
> >> > vars are and how many samples is advanced at a time per k-loop.  While
> >> > the sampling rate is a nice whole number per second, I didn't think it
> >> > ever really mattered if it divides into it or not and didn't affect
> >> > clock rates or anything hardware related.  I've also had it in my head
> >> > that power-of-two was best for ksmps and buffers, and remember
> >> > experiencing much better performance using a power-of-two setting that
> >> > was smaller in ksmps than one larger that wasn't power-of-two.
> >> >
> >> > I have no idea about the Jack driver and the error message posted
> >> > seemed to only imply a relationship between -b and ksmps, not anything
> >> > with sr.
> >> >
> >> > (Sorry if I've missed something but I wasn't following this discussion
> >> > too carefully so please correct me if I'm wrong).
> >> >
> >> > steven
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 12/12/06, Jonathan Murphy  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Crucial.
> >> >>
> >> >> Victor Lazzarini  writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> > How important is that ksmps divides 44100? I did not think
> >> >> > that was the matter.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > At 11:32 12/12/2006, you wrote:
> >> >> >>But 32 is not a devisor of 44100
> >> >> >>==John ffitch
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> ---
> >> ----
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> >> >> >>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Victor Lazzarini
> >> >> > Music Technology Laboratory
> >> >> > Music Department
> >> >> > National University of Ireland, Maynooth
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date2006-12-12 13:55
FromDavid Akbari
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
I believe that only certain audio driver plugins require ksmps to be an  
integer multiple of ksmps. As far as I can see, only the Jack driver  
(all platforms it is supported on) requires this.

At least ALSA, CoreAudio, PortAudio, and MME do not have any such  
requirement.


-David

On Dec 12, 2006, at 7:48 AM, Richard Dobson wrote:

> Hitherto, at least, it has never mattered if kr was an integer or not.
> Indeed I recall making experiemnts to verifyt that very question years
> ago. One can use kr and ksmps in the orchestra for whatever purposes,
> and of course all vars in Csound are represented as floats anyway. From
> my memory, the only issue was to ensure that Csound's initial  
> validation
> of sr/kr=ksmps worked, i.e. was not flummoxed by numerical
> trancation/rounding issues.
>
> I cannot say if Csound5 requires kr to be an integer, not being in the
> loop with respect to the sources these days, but it would surprise me,
> and I would be led to question it.
>
> Richard Dobson
>
>
> Jonathan Murphy wrote:
>> Shouldn't it be an integer? If sr = 44100 and ksmps = 32 then kr =  
>> 1378.125.
>>
>> Victor Lazzarini  writes:
>>
>>
>>> yep, but kr can be anything, afaik.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
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Date2006-12-12 13:58
FromVictor Lazzarini
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
yes, that sometimes used to catch me, but I then started not setting
kr, letting csound do it. Csound5 has not changed the fact that kr can
be non-integral.

At 13:48 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>my memory, the only issue was to ensure that Csound's initial validation
>of sr/kr=ksmps worked, i.e. was not flummoxed by numerical
>trancation/rounding issues.

Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 


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Date2006-12-12 14:13
FromJonathan Murphy
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Thanks Folks, 

This is great to know. As a relatively new csounder, I have never
needed to set kr, and really was just concerned regarding the accuracy
of documentation. If kr can be non integral then the only things that
need to be done are to update the man page regarding kr, it currently
reads:

"should evaluate to an integer"

And to either change, or omit and change to ksmps = 8 (or 16, or 32 or
whatever) the default setting for kr.

These are the reasons why I was worried that there was a serious
problem with the default settings, but I'm glad to learn that I was
wrong.

Jonathan.

Victor Lazzarini  writes:

> yes, that sometimes used to catch me, but I then started not setting
> kr, letting csound do it. Csound5 has not changed the fact that kr can
> be non-integral.
>
> At 13:48 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>>my memory, the only issue was to ensure that Csound's initial validation
>>of sr/kr=ksmps worked, i.e. was not flummoxed by numerical
>>trancation/rounding issues.
>
> Victor Lazzarini
> Music Technology Laboratory
> Music Department
> National University of Ireland, Maynooth 
>
>
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Date2006-12-12 15:40
FromAndres Cabrera
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
fixed.

Andres

Jonathan Murphy wrote:
> Thanks Folks, 
>
> This is great to know. As a relatively new csounder, I have never
> needed to set kr, and really was just concerned regarding the accuracy
> of documentation. If kr can be non integral then the only things that
> need to be done are to update the man page regarding kr, it currently
> reads:
>
> "should evaluate to an integer"
>
> And to either change, or omit and change to ksmps = 8 (or 16, or 32 or
> whatever) the default setting for kr.
>
> These are the reasons why I was worried that there was a serious
> problem with the default settings, but I'm glad to learn that I was
> wrong.
>
> Jonathan.
>
> Victor Lazzarini  writes:
>
>   
>> yes, that sometimes used to catch me, but I then started not setting
>> kr, letting csound do it. Csound5 has not changed the fact that kr can
>> be non-integral.
>>
>> At 13:48 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>>     
>>> my memory, the only issue was to ensure that Csound's initial validation
>>> of sr/kr=ksmps worked, i.e. was not flummoxed by numerical
>>> trancation/rounding issues.
>>>       
>> Victor Lazzarini
>> Music Technology Laboratory
>> Music Department
>> National University of Ireland, Maynooth 
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Date2006-12-13 08:33
FromJonathan Murphy
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Thanks Andres,

Do you mean you fixed the man page and changed the default kr/smps or
just the man page? I've also noticed that the man page for sr says the
same thing: "should evaluate to an integer". Should this read, "should
evaluate to an integer", "must evaluate to an integer" or "can be
anything however values supported by your soundcard will generally be
most useful"?

If Andres has not already made this (or similar) change, could the
following lines in csoundCore.h (LL 93-95):

#define DFLT_SR    FL(44100.0)
#define DFLT_KR    FL(4410.0)
#define DFLT_KSMPS 10

please be changed to read:

#define DFLT_SR    FL(44100.0)
#define DFLT_KR    FL(2756.25)
#define DFLT_KSMPS 16

Thanks,
Jonathan.

Andres Cabrera  writes:

> fixed.
>
> Andres
>
> Jonathan Murphy wrote:
>> Thanks Folks, 
>>
>> This is great to know. As a relatively new csounder, I have never
>> needed to set kr, and really was just concerned regarding the accuracy
>> of documentation. If kr can be non integral then the only things that
>> need to be done are to update the man page regarding kr, it currently
>> reads:
>>
>> "should evaluate to an integer"
>>
>> And to either change, or omit and change to ksmps = 8 (or 16, or 32 or
>> whatever) the default setting for kr.
>>
>> These are the reasons why I was worried that there was a serious
>> problem with the default settings, but I'm glad to learn that I was
>> wrong.
>>
>> Jonathan.
>>
>> Victor Lazzarini  writes:
>>
>>   
>>> yes, that sometimes used to catch me, but I then started not setting
>>> kr, letting csound do it. Csound5 has not changed the fact that kr can
>>> be non-integral.
>>>
>>> At 13:48 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>>>     
>>>> my memory, the only issue was to ensure that Csound's initial validation
>>>> of sr/kr=ksmps worked, i.e. was not flummoxed by numerical
>>>> trancation/rounding issues.
>>>>       
>>> Victor Lazzarini
>>> Music Technology Laboratory
>>> Music Department
>>> National University of Ireland, Maynooth 
>>>
>>>
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Date2006-12-13 13:21
FromAndres Cabrera
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Hi Jonathan,

I fixed just the manual. I've just added something for sr.

Thanks,
Andres

Jonathan Murphy wrote:
> Thanks Andres,
>
> Do you mean you fixed the man page and changed the default kr/smps or
> just the man page? I've also noticed that the man page for sr says the
> same thing: "should evaluate to an integer". Should this read, "should
> evaluate to an integer", "must evaluate to an integer" or "can be
> anything however values supported by your soundcard will generally be
> most useful"?
>
> If Andres has not already made this (or similar) change, could the
> following lines in csoundCore.h (LL 93-95):
>
> #define DFLT_SR    FL(44100.0)
> #define DFLT_KR    FL(4410.0)
> #define DFLT_KSMPS 10
>
> please be changed to read:
>
> #define DFLT_SR    FL(44100.0)
> #define DFLT_KR    FL(2756.25)
> #define DFLT_KSMPS 16
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan.
>
> Andres Cabrera  writes:
>
>   
>> fixed.
>>
>> Andres
>>
>> Jonathan Murphy wrote:
>>     
>>> Thanks Folks, 
>>>
>>> This is great to know. As a relatively new csounder, I have never
>>> needed to set kr, and really was just concerned regarding the accuracy
>>> of documentation. If kr can be non integral then the only things that
>>> need to be done are to update the man page regarding kr, it currently
>>> reads:
>>>
>>> "should evaluate to an integer"
>>>
>>> And to either change, or omit and change to ksmps = 8 (or 16, or 32 or
>>> whatever) the default setting for kr.
>>>
>>> These are the reasons why I was worried that there was a serious
>>> problem with the default settings, but I'm glad to learn that I was
>>> wrong.
>>>
>>> Jonathan.
>>>
>>> Victor Lazzarini  writes:
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> yes, that sometimes used to catch me, but I then started not setting
>>>> kr, letting csound do it. Csound5 has not changed the fact that kr can
>>>> be non-integral.
>>>>
>>>> At 13:48 12/12/2006, you wrote:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> my memory, the only issue was to ensure that Csound's initial validation
>>>>> of sr/kr=ksmps worked, i.e. was not flummoxed by numerical
>>>>> trancation/rounding issues.
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> Victor Lazzarini
>>>> Music Technology Laboratory
>>>> Music Department
>>>> National University of Ireland, Maynooth 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>         
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Date2006-12-13 16:29
FromAnthony Kozar
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
The only "problem" that I see with this being the default (and it is more of
an aesthetic thing for me) is that with kr being non-integral, Csound will
not output sound files, I think, that are exactly N seconds long where N is
any integer.  (Correct me if I am mistaken, but Csound always writes a sound
file that is an even multiple of ksmps samples long??)

Furthermore -- and this is perhaps more disturbing to me -- many note events
that start exactly at even second times will start at the closest ksmps*N
boundary instead.  

Maybe this does not matter to anyone else and maybe it should not matter for
the Csound defaults either ...

In most of my music, the second is the primary unit of time -- I can of
course just set kr & ksmps manually (and I normally do).

*shrug*

Anthony

Jonathan Murphy wrote on 12/13/06 3:33 AM:

> please be changed to read:
> 
> #define DFLT_SR    FL(44100.0)
> #define DFLT_KR    FL(2756.25)
> #define DFLT_KSMPS 16


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Date2006-12-13 23:49
FromJonathan Murphy
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Anthony Kozar  writes:

> Furthermore -- and this is perhaps more disturbing to me -- many note events
> that start exactly at even second times will start at the closest ksmps*N
> boundary instead.  
>
> Maybe this does not matter to anyone else and maybe it should not matter for
> the Csound defaults either ...

I think that that matters, and in light of that, and the stuff that
I've been going on about over the last few days, would like to change
my request to change the defaults to:

sr    = 48000
kr    = 3000
ksmps = 16

I think that the current defaults for -b and -B are fine.

Regarding what Mike said, I think of it as being like the gear system of a
bicycle. The chain is a fixed length, like ksmps, looping over two
cogs. The one at the rear is like -B, the one at the front like -b. If
you can only change the size of the rear cog, you can still get up
hills, but if you can change the size of the front cog as well, it's a
lot easier.

Jonathan.

>
> In most of my music, the second is the primary unit of time -- I can of
> course just set kr & ksmps manually (and I normally do).
>
> *shrug*
>
> Anthony
>
> Jonathan Murphy wrote on 12/13/06 3:33 AM:
>
>> please be changed to read:
>> 
>> #define DFLT_SR    FL(44100.0)
>> #define DFLT_KR    FL(2756.25)
>> #define DFLT_KSMPS 16
>
>
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Date2006-12-14 04:11
FromAnthony Kozar
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally rather have sr = 44100
and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I like the current defaults the most).

The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a long history of
built-in sound hardware with drivers that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and
11025 sampling rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within the
last few years, but it was from the early '90s through probably '01 or so.

You guys in the Intel/Windows are better off since you can buy a machine
without on-board sound and then get a better soundcard for it ...

Honestly, I could work with just about anything though.  I will just make
the sr and kr overrides "on" by default in my MacOS front end if I have to.

Anthony


Jonathan Murphy wrote on 12/13/06 6:49 PM:

> I've been going on about over the last few days, would like to change
> my request to change the defaults to:
> 
> sr    = 48000
> kr    = 3000
> ksmps = 16


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Date2006-12-14 08:37
FromJonathan Murphy
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] sensekey
Anthony Kozar  writes:

> I don't mean to be difficult, but I would personally rather have sr = 44100
> and ksmps = 16 than this.  (And I like the current defaults the
> most).
> The issue here for me is that the Macintosh world has a long history of
> built-in sound hardware with drivers that support ONLY 44100, 22050, and
> 11025 sampling rates.  I don't know if this is true of machines within the
> last few years, but it was from the early '90s through probably '01
> or so.

I wasn't aware of that. Sorry. Myself, I only use linux, and never use
the default sr/ksmps, rarely the default -b -B. I don't want to be
difficult either. My concern over this only arises because I wrote a
couple of example instruments for rt audio in/out, and when I started
to document them, realised that the defaults wouldn't work. It seems
necessary that there be defaults, but it also seems necessary that the
defaults work. For my personal use of csound, none of this matters in
the slightest, if the defaults became problematic for me I could just
change them before compiling. It's often said that csound is difficult
to learn, but easy to use once you've grasped the basics, and I think
that that's valid. I'd just like to make it easier for people to get
over that first big hurdle, so that they can get on with making great
music. I'm not a developer, so all of this is really out of my hands
anyway. The request to find a better compromise in terms of the default
settings is only that, a request, regardless of how grumpy and uptight
I may have sounded at times. Sure that you'll all appreciate it if I
shut up at this point, so that's that. If there's a change it'll be
posted, otherwise I'll present some information as best I can
regardless. 

Jonathan.

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