Also what is the status of including Csound5 on any live CD's ?

 From my experience partitioning a disk that already has valuable data 
on it can result in nasty things happening to your data; it seems there 
would be more utility in just booting off of a live CD such as 
pure:dyne or AGNULA with Csound5 already installed rather than risk 
losing all of your data on your Windows drive.


$0.02

-David

On Nov 19, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Art Hunkins wrote:

> I am a Windows person, and no doubt will remain one. However, I'd like 
> to
> take up Ian's real-time Csound Linux challenge (thanks, Ian), and 
> install a
> separate Linux boot on my new laptop.
>
> I will not do this, though, unless there is a fairly foolproof Linux
> installer for Csound5. I have watched the endless and heroic attempts 
> to
> build Csound on Linux here on this list, and will *not* subject my 
> body and
> remaining life to this stress. (My cardiologist would not like it 
> either.)
> I'm serious about this. I cannot afford to try to "roll my own" Linux, 
> as
> users perhaps *should* do, according to Istvan. (But I wonder how many
> *would* do it?)
>
> If Linux is to *thrive* as a Csound OS, appropriate installers must be
> available for at least selected versions of Linux.
>
> So a decision needs to be made as to which versions of Linux to 
> support.
> With this as background, which will be the first Linux installer 
> versions? I
> need a recommendation as to which Linux to obtain - *one based on a
> soon-upcoming available installer*.
>
> Or else I need to forget about it. Please let me know.
>
> Art Hunkins



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I am a Windows person, and no doubt will remain one. However, I'd like to
take up Ian's real-time Csound Linux challenge (thanks, Ian), and install a
separate Linux boot on my new laptop.

I will not do this, though, unless there is a fairly foolproof Linux
installer for Csound5. I have watched the endless and heroic attempts to
build Csound on Linux here on this list, and will *not* subject my body and
remaining life to this stress. (My cardiologist would not like it either.)
I'm serious about this. I cannot afford to try to "roll my own" Linux, as
users perhaps *should* do, according to Istvan. (But I wonder how many
*would* do it?)

If Linux is to *thrive* as a Csound OS, appropriate installers must be
available for at least selected versions of Linux.

So a decision needs to be made as to which versions of Linux to support.
With this as background, which will be the first Linux installer versions? I
need a recommendation as to which Linux to obtain - *one based on a
soon-upcoming available installer*.

Or else I need to forget about it. Please let me know.

Art Hunkins

----- Original Message -----
From: "Istvan Varga" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Multi port midi proposal


> Steven Yi wrote:
>
> > In terms of time table, installers seem like the most pressing thing
> > on everyone's minds, as the rest of the above seem in very good shape
> > (bravo all of you! ^_^).  Just to get some kind of timeline out for
> > consideration, would a rough schedule of getting installers done in a
> > week,
>
> Actually, the installers are a major problem, and it is not likely
> that this issue is going to be solved in a week or even in any
> predictable amount of time. It would be possible to have installers
> for Windows and OS X in 1-2 weeks if anyone would actually work on
> it - but that is not the case (the situation is particularly bad
> with respect to the Mac platforms). Linux is a different issue: we
> already have scripts for generating packages, but due to the lack of
> binary compatibility and different directory structure, a separate
> package should be generated for every commonly used distribution
> and release, and there is just no one who would actually do that
> tedious task. Thus, the standard means of installing on Linux still
> remains compiling from sources.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
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The dependencies in Linux are module-specific, not release specific. So,
it needs to be determined/decided which versions of the various modules
does CSound require. This then could be mapped to the various distributions.

For example, now CSound has a hard dependency on Python 2.3, which is
inconsistent with at least Fedora 4 - it packages Python 2.4. Also, it
comes with gcc 4, which may still be an issue for legacy  dependencies
to 3.x. Not sure, though, since I installed 3.x to avoid these issues.

The real problem, though, with Linux is now how to get a working sound
system. I've wasted enough time now with drivers, cards, and ALSA, that
I'm thoroughly convinced that Linux is a total waste of time for any
serious sound artist. I'm starting to think it's worthless for users in
general too, because it still continues to be advanced by developers who
are clueless about usability, maintainability, and all the other
critical qualities of software that must be addressed for the software
to be of use to anyone other than loner nerds.

Mike Worobec

Art Hunkins wrote:

>I am a Windows person, and no doubt will remain one. However, I'd like to
>take up Ian's real-time Csound Linux challenge (thanks, Ian), and install a
>separate Linux boot on my new laptop.
>
>I will not do this, though, unless there is a fairly foolproof Linux
>installer for Csound5. I have watched the endless and heroic attempts to
>build Csound on Linux here on this list, and will *not* subject my body and
>remaining life to this stress. (My cardiologist would not like it either.)
>I'm serious about this. I cannot afford to try to "roll my own" Linux, as
>users perhaps *should* do, according to Istvan. (But I wonder how many
>*would* do it?)
>
>If Linux is to *thrive* as a Csound OS, appropriate installers must be
>available for at least selected versions of Linux.
>
>So a decision needs to be made as to which versions of Linux to support.
>With this as background, which will be the first Linux installer versions? I
>need a recommendation as to which Linux to obtain - *one based on a
>soon-upcoming available installer*.
>
>Or else I need to forget about it. Please let me know.
>
>Art Hunkins
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Istvan Varga" 
>To: 
>Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 7:08 AM
>Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Multi port midi proposal
>
>
>  
>
>>Steven Yi wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>In terms of time table, installers seem like the most pressing thing
>>>on everyone's minds, as the rest of the above seem in very good shape
>>>(bravo all of you! ^_^).  Just to get some kind of timeline out for
>>>consideration, would a rough schedule of getting installers done in a
>>>week,
>>>      
>>>
>>Actually, the installers are a major problem, and it is not likely
>>that this issue is going to be solved in a week or even in any
>>predictable amount of time. It would be possible to have installers
>>for Windows and OS X in 1-2 weeks if anyone would actually work on
>>it - but that is not the case (the situation is particularly bad
>>with respect to the Mac platforms). Linux is a different issue: we
>>already have scripts for generating packages, but due to the lack of
>>binary compatibility and different directory structure, a separate
>>package should be generated for every commonly used distribution
>>and release, and there is just no one who would actually do that
>>tedious task. Thus, the standard means of installing on Linux still
>>remains compiling from sources.
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------
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>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>    
>>
>
>
>
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David, it will be on Pure:dyne and Dyne:bolic II. I will be helping test 
all that to get it working well when the time is right. At the moment 
both are still too beta to spend a lot of time playing with integration, 
but I expect by early next year we will have a live CD with csound5 
rocking out of the box.

Iain

David Akbari wrote:
> Also what is the status of including Csound5 on any live CD's ?
> 
>  From my experience partitioning a disk that already has valuable data 
> on it can result in nasty things happening to your data; it seems there 
> would be more utility in just booting off of a live CD such as pure:dyne 
> or AGNULA with Csound5 already installed rather than risk losing all of 
> your data on your Windows drive.
> 
> 
> $0.02
> 
> -David
> 
> On Nov 19, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Art Hunkins wrote:
> 
>> I am a Windows person, and no doubt will remain one. However, I'd like to
>> take up Ian's real-time Csound Linux challenge (thanks, Ian), and 
>> install a
>> separate Linux boot on my new laptop.
>>
>> I will not do this, though, unless there is a fairly foolproof Linux
>> installer for Csound5. I have watched the endless and heroic attempts to
>> build Csound on Linux here on this list, and will *not* subject my 
>> body and
>> remaining life to this stress. (My cardiologist would not like it 
>> either.)
>> I'm serious about this. I cannot afford to try to "roll my own" Linux, as
>> users perhaps *should* do, according to Istvan. (But I wonder how many
>> *would* do it?)
>>
>> If Linux is to *thrive* as a Csound OS, appropriate installers must be
>> available for at least selected versions of Linux.
>>
>> So a decision needs to be made as to which versions of Linux to support.
>> With this as background, which will be the first Linux installer 
>> versions? I
>> need a recommendation as to which Linux to obtain - *one based on a
>> soon-upcoming available installer*.
>>
>> Or else I need to forget about it. Please let me know.
>>
>> Art Hunkins
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
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On Nov 19, 2005, at 4:08 PM, Iain Duncan wrote:

> it will be on Pure:dyne and Dyne:bolic II. I will be helping test all 
> that to get it working well when the time is right. At the moment both 
> are still too beta to spend a lot of time playing with integration, 
> but I expect by early next year we will have a live CD with csound5 
> rocking out of the box.

Until that time I eagerly await its release.


-David



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> The real problem, though, with Linux is now how to get a working sound
> system. I've wasted enough time now with drivers, cards, and ALSA, that
> I'm thoroughly convinced that Linux is a total waste of time for any
> serious sound artist. I'm starting to think it's worthless for users in
> general too, because it still continues to be advanced by developers who
> are clueless about usability, maintainability, and all the other
> critical qualities of software that must be addressed for the software
> to be of use to anyone other than loner nerds.

This is total nonsense. Yes it is more difficult than windows, but it is 
definitely not a waste of time, and it becomes easier every year. A 
formula 1 car is also much harder to drive than a honda civic! Alsa and 
Jack work right away with dyne:bolic on most systems. Alsa worked right 
away for me with Gentoo. Your assumption that a "serious sound artist" 
would not be *serious* enough about their craft to spend some time 
setting up the highest performance platform possible and learning how to 
use it is just plain bizarre. I was not a programmer before I started 
csounding. I had never used linux. I began learning all of those 
specifically to use csound better, and don't feel any of it was wasted.

Iain


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Michael Worobec wrote:

> For example, now CSound has a hard dependency on Python 2.3, which is
> inconsistent with at least Fedora 4 - it packages Python 2.4. Also, it

There is no "hard dependency" on Python 2.3. First, a binary Csound
installation only needs Python for the Python opcodes and extension
module, and those are optional: everything else works fine without
Python. Second, the Python version to be used, while defaults to 2.3,
can be selected at compile time.

> comes with gcc 4, which may still be an issue for legacy  dependencies
> to 3.x.

I have GCC 4.0 and 4.1, and Csound compiles fine with either (CsoundVST
does not, though, but that is again an optional component). You do have
a point about compiling on one distribution, and then trying to use the
resulting package on another; we probably need separate binary releases
for each commonly used distribution.


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Iain Duncan wrote:

> This is total nonsense. Yes it is more difficult than windows, but it
> is definitely not a waste of time, and it becomes easier every year. A
> formula 1 car is also much harder to drive than a honda civic! Alsa
> and Jack work right away with dyne:bolic on most systems. Alsa worked
> right away for me with Gentoo. Your assumption that a "serious sound
> artist" would not be *serious* enough about their craft to spend some
> time setting up the highest performance platform possible and learning
> how to use it is just plain bizarre. I was not a programmer before I
> started csounding. I had never used linux. I began learning all of
> those specifically to use csound better, and don't feel any of it was
> wasted.
>
> Iain

I don't know why you'd think not wanting to waste time with
idiosyncrasies that are not directly relevant to sound is 'bizarre'. I
simply want my work to be CSound related, not Linux related. Your Indy
analogy is good: I want to drive the car, not repair it. Every time I
upgrade the distribution, or some module, I don't want to have to spend
a day or two upgrading everything else until the system works again.
Besides, the fact that individual experiences with Linux are so
dramatically different is exactly the point I'm trying to make.  As much
as I want it not to be true, I think the idiosyncrasies of Linux in many
cases (mine) cancel out the gains.

That said, I'm not giving up, just venting ...

One more thing - every time I sync to the source base, I run into new
build issues on Linux. How and to whom should I report these? I don't
have tree access (yet).

Mike W


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? Csound does not have a hard dependency on python.  What do you mean?
>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Worobec  writes:

 Michael> For example, now CSound has a hard dependency on Python 2.3, which is
 Michael> inconsistent with at least Fedora 4 - it packages Python 2.4. Also, it
 Michael> comes with gcc 4, which may still be an issue for legacy  dependencies
 Michael> to 3.x. Not sure, though, since I installed 3.x to avoid these issues.

==John ffitch


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I recall having no luck setting the scons python version option to
python 2.4, and by using the default, 2.3, I had to install python 2.3
which by default was not on Fedora 4. After build, the binaries then are
dependent on the specific version of Python. It may be that the Python
2.4 default install in Fedora is deficient in something that prevented
my build from succeeding. But, rather than fight with it, I went to 2.3,
and it built and runs fine.

Perhaps this is not really a hard dependency, but it's not all that soft
either. Is it possible for CSound instead to simply attempt to use
whatever version is installed?

MikeW

jpff@codemist.co.uk wrote:

>? Csound does not have a hard dependency on python.  What do you mean?
>  
>
>>>>>>"Michael" == Michael Worobec  writes:
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>
> Michael> For example, now CSound has a hard dependency on Python 2.3, which is
> Michael> inconsistent with at least Fedora 4 - it packages Python 2.4. Also, it
> Michael> comes with gcc 4, which may still be an issue for legacy  dependencies
> Michael> to 3.x. Not sure, though, since I installed 3.x to avoid these issues.
>
>==John ffitch
>
>
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Building Csound may use python; running it does not, so there is no dependency.
==John ffitch


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