[Csnd] wguide1: how to estimate/approximate note sustain

[Csnd] wguide1: how to estimate/approximate note sustain

Date	2023-07-25 00:40
From	"Jeanette C."
Subject	[Csnd] wguide1: how to estimate/approximate note sustain
	Hey hey, is there a simple formula, given the single delay line waveguide (wguide1) opcode, to estimate the decay of a note? Something either directly based on the supplied user parameters or values easily derived from them. The exciter might be an unknown. If we consider it to be a very short noise burst, could that help? I find it quite difficult to adjust the cutoff and feedback values across certain note ranges to result in plausibly similar note lengths. The strings of an acoustic guitar will decay at somewhat different lengths, but not too drastically different. Is the samplerate of the orchestra a factor to be taken into account? Any hints would be appreciated. Best wishes, Jeanette -- * Website: http://juliencoder.de - for summer is a state of sound * Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMS4rfGrTwz8W7jhC1Jnv7g * Audiobombs: https://www.audiobombs.com/users/jeanette_c * GitHub: https://github.com/jeanette-c There's just a thing or two I'd like you to know <3 (Britney Spears) Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2023-07-25 21:14
From	ST Music
Subject	Re: [Csnd] wguide1: how to estimate/approximate note sustain
	Hi Jeanette. As you know I've been tinkering with the slightly unpredictable world of physical modeling (noise is random!). In this case I found using the noise opcode beneficial due to the ability to constrain it with the built in lpf (kbeta). It helps even out amplitudes; without a lpf I find higher notes are much louder. <CsoundSynthesizer> <CsOptions> -odac -m2 ; -o wguide1_dur_48000.wav </CsOptions> <CsInstruments> sr = 48000 ksmps = 32 nchnls = 2 0dbfs = 1 gkCnt init 0 seed 0 instr trig kNote[] fillarray 33, 40, 45, 52, 57, 64, 69 kLen = lenarray(kNote) kTrig = metro(.2) kFreq = mtof(kNote[gkCnt]) schedkwhen kTrig, 0, 0, 2, 0, 5, kFreq if kTrig == 1 then gkCnt += 1 endif if gkCnt == kLen then gkCnt = 0 endif endin instr 2 aEnv = expseg:a(1, .1, .0001) aSig = noise(2 * aEnv, 0.99) kFreq = p4 ; kDur affects general duration of notes ; by exponentially raising cutoff relative ; to note frequency ; in this case, when the highest note (A440) ; is played, the cutoff is 22kHz iDur = 50 ; affects general duration kCut = p4 * iDur ; filter cutoff freq. print p4 ; prints note freq. print p4 * iDur ; prints cutoff freq. ; kRtio = duration of lower vs higher freq ; ex. value of .5 will increase dur. of high notes vs low ; value of .01 will decrease dur. of higher notes vs low iRtio = .5 ; prints feedback value print .992 + (.006 - (.6/p4 * iRtio)) kFbk = 0.992 + (.006 - (.6/kFreq * iRtio)) aWg1 = wguide1(aSig, kFreq, kCut, kFbk) aOut = dcblock2(aWg1) outs aOut, aOut endin </CsInstruments> <CsScore> i"trig" 0 70 e </CsScore> </CsoundSynthesizer> Here there are 2 primary factors at work in the code. As the note pitch rises, the cutoff freq increases exponentially & the feedback level increases as well. For example, with a note at 55 Hz the wguide filter cutoff will be 2750 & the feedback .993 At A440 the cutoff is 22kHz and the feedback .997 I think it creates "plausibly similar" note lengths. To increase overall note lengths you can raise the initial kFbk level above .992 The iRtio value affects the duration ratio of high vs low notes (see comments). I noticed that notes higher than 440, however, start dropping dramatically in duration. For ex., using an orc sr of 48000, A880 will raise the wguide cutoff to 44kHz but the note has essentially no sustain. However, if the sr is raised to 96000 it's duration increases substantially (although the timbre of all the notes now sounds brighter to me, I don't find it particularly appealing...) so clearly the sr of the orc would appear to be a factor. This does pose another issue though as higher notes again start rising in amplitude. I'm not sure adjusting the noise kbeta would help, I haven't yet tried it. Perhaps raising the kbeta in relation to the note/cutoff freq. might help. I think therein lies a possible problem with finding a "simple" formula. There seems to be a relationship between the exciter freq. (and the duration of it), the wguide cutoff freq., the feedback level, the osc sr and the resulting amplitude of each note relating to the exc. freq & wguide cutoff. Perhaps someone can offer a better mathematical solution (it's definitely not a strength of mine) as these are only my personal anecdotal experiences. I wonder how practical any formula might be as changes to the exciter source would possibly prevent any method from being precise unless possibly applied in an opcode. And of course noise itself is a random exciter, although that seems beneficial for some models as it inherently creates constant variation. I hope to see some other responses, I find this a really interesting method of synthesis and there are certainly those here with much more knowledge than myself in this area. I uploaded two files here for convenience, one at sr 48000 & the other at 96000: https://github.com/ST-Music/csound-examples/tree/main/physical_modeling/wguide1 Not sure this really answers your question but perhaps offers one perspective. Best, Scott On Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 7:40 p.m. Jeanette C. <julien@mail.upb.de> wrote: Hey hey, is there a simple formula, given the single delay line waveguide (wguide1) opcode, to estimate the decay of a note? Something either directly based on the supplied user parameters or values easily derived from them. The exciter might be an unknown. If we consider it to be a very short noise burst, could that help? I find it quite difficult to adjust the cutoff and feedback values across certain note ranges to result in plausibly similar note lengths. The strings of an acoustic guitar will decay at somewhat different lengths, but not too drastically different. Is the samplerate of the orchestra a factor to be taken into account? Any hints would be appreciated. Best wishes, Jeanette -- * Website: http://juliencoder.de - for summer is a state of sound * Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMS4rfGrTwz8W7jhC1Jnv7g * Audiobombs: https://www.audiobombs.com/users/jeanette_c * GitHub: https://github.com/jeanette-c There's just a thing or two I'd like you to know <3 (Britney Spears) Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2023-07-25 22:21
From	"Jeanette C."
Subject	Re: [Csnd] wguide1: how to estimate/approximate note sustain
	hi Scott, thanks for this starting point. For now, I shall take it up and use it. It seems a basis arrived by some careful experimentation. Best wishes, Jeanette -- * Website: http://juliencoder.de - for summer is a state of sound * Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMS4rfGrTwz8W7jhC1Jnv7g * Audiobombs: https://www.audiobombs.com/users/jeanette_c * GitHub: https://github.com/jeanette-c ... And that I know you're out there and I know that you still care <3 (Britney Spears) Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2023-07-25 23:18
From	ST Music
Subject	Re: [Csnd] wguide1: how to estimate/approximate note sustain
	You're quite welcome. Yes, experimentation indeed, I haven't the skills to code physical modeling in any logical way. As the Sound on Sound article https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/physical-modelling-synthesis-explained put it: The process of 'misusing' sound synthesis techniques has worked very well for analogue synthesizers, and I see no reason why modelling‑based instruments should be any different. If it sounds like the timbre you want, the method used to produce the timbre may well be irrelevant to you. If you find any clever solutions please let me know! Best, Scott On Tue, Jul 25, 2023, 5:21 p.m. Jeanette C. <julien@mail.upb.de> wrote: hi Scott, thanks for this starting point. For now, I shall take it up and use it. It seems a basis arrived by some careful experimentation. Best wishes, Jeanette -- * Website: http://juliencoder.de - for summer is a state of sound * Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMS4rfGrTwz8W7jhC1Jnv7g * Audiobombs: https://www.audiobombs.com/users/jeanette_c * GitHub: https://github.com/jeanette-c ... And that I know you're out there and I know that you still care <3 (Britney Spears) Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2023-07-26 02:45
From	Partev Sarkissian <0000060b2ef1338e-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE>
Subject	Re: [Csnd] wguide1: how to estimate/approximate note sustain
	-Amp -Filter -Delay ... three basic blocks used to create Models. Some 11 or 12 math form expressions used in modeling. In late 1975 to mid '76, a friend and I were trying to use what was called "numerical modeling" using vector math in a digital audio data stream, as a way to maintain data validity and minimize errors. I say "trying", because we were doing 16-bit data with two tandem 8-bit CPU's that could not handle the calculation load and were too slow for processing audio. 1978, someone was trying to model pianos in a primitive way, that spawned other methods. Then came John Chowning with Freeverb and FM synthesis and founder of CCRMA. And since then Julius Smith has carried that on there,... along with his four books on modeling. Thank you John and Julius. 1990 or '92, Los Angeles, AES convention, two guys from CCRMA with faster, better processors demoed physical modeling. Everyone was wowed, including my future boss. Commercial modeling came out around 1995 ish. Now I work at Line 6 since 2007 (now part of Yamaha Guitar Group). Bit of historical background to go with that SOS article. -PBS ====================== On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 11:20:27 PM GMT+1, ST Music <stunes6556@gmail.com> wrote: You're quite welcome. Yes, experimentation indeed, I haven't the skills to code physical modeling in any logical way. As the Sound on Sound article https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/physical-modelling-synthesis-explained put it: The process of 'misusing' sound synthesis techniques has worked very well for analogue synthesizers, and I see no reason why modelling‑based instruments should be any different. If it sounds like the timbre you want, the method used to produce the timbre may well be irrelevant to you. If you find any clever solutions please let me know! Best, Scott On Tue, Jul 25, 2023, 5:21 p.m. Jeanette C. <julien@mail.upb.de> wrote: hi Scott, thanks for this starting point. For now, I shall take it up and use it. It seems a basis arrived by some careful experimentation. Best wishes, Jeanette -- * Website: http://juliencoder.de - for summer is a state of sound * Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMS4rfGrTwz8W7jhC1Jnv7g * Audiobombs: https://www.audiobombs.com/users/jeanette_c * GitHub: https://github.com/jeanette-c ... And that I know you're out there and I know that you still care <3 (Britney Spears) Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2023-07-26 03:48
From	ST Music
Subject	Re: [Csnd] wguide1: how to estimate/approximate note sustain
	An interesting area of synthesis, nice to read your comments. Although the mathematical aspects of his work are a little beyond my ability to use productively, I quite enjoy Julius Smith's work (Jeanette originally introduced me to it). Anyone curious can find the 4 books available to read online here: https://www.dsprelated.com/freebooks.php Also cool to hear you work at Line 6; I've been using their products since the PodXT followed in the footsteps of the original red bean. Best, Scott On Tue, Jul 25, 2023, 9:45 p.m. Partev Sarkissian <0000060b2ef1338e-dmarc-request@listserv.heanet.ie> wrote: -Amp -Filter -Delay ... three basic blocks used to create Models. Some 11 or 12 math form expressions used in modeling. In late 1975 to mid '76, a friend and I were trying to use what was called "numerical modeling" using vector math in a digital audio data stream, as a way to maintain data validity and minimize errors. I say "trying", because we were doing 16-bit data with two tandem 8-bit CPU's that could not handle the calculation load and were too slow for processing audio. 1978, someone was trying to model pianos in a primitive way, that spawned other methods. Then came John Chowning with Freeverb and FM synthesis and founder of CCRMA. And since then Julius Smith has carried that on there,... along with his four books on modeling. Thank you John and Julius. 1990 or '92, Los Angeles, AES convention, two guys from CCRMA with faster, better processors demoed physical modeling. Everyone was wowed, including my future boss. Commercial modeling came out around 1995 ish. Now I work at Line 6 since 2007 (now part of Yamaha Guitar Group). Bit of historical background to go with that SOS article. -PBS ====================== On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 11:20:27 PM GMT+1, ST Music <stunes6556@gmail.com> wrote: You're quite welcome. Yes, experimentation indeed, I haven't the skills to code physical modeling in any logical way. As the Sound on Sound article https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/physical-modelling-synthesis-explained put it: The process of 'misusing' sound synthesis techniques has worked very well for analogue synthesizers, and I see no reason why modelling‑based instruments should be any different. If it sounds like the timbre you want, the method used to produce the timbre may well be irrelevant to you. If you find any clever solutions please let me know! Best, Scott On Tue, Jul 25, 2023, 5:21 p.m. Jeanette C. <julien@mail.upb.de> wrote: hi Scott, thanks for this starting point. For now, I shall take it up and use it. It seems a basis arrived by some careful experimentation. Best wishes, Jeanette -- * Website: http://juliencoder.de - for summer is a state of sound * Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMS4rfGrTwz8W7jhC1Jnv7g * Audiobombs: https://www.audiobombs.com/users/jeanette_c * GitHub: https://github.com/jeanette-c ... And that I know you're out there and I know that you still care <3 (Britney Spears) Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2023-07-26 10:01
From	John ff
Subject	Re: [Csnd] wguide1: how to estimate/approximate note sustain
	⁣Get TypeApp for Android On 26 Jul 2023, 03:51, at 03:51, ST Music wrote: >An interesting area of synthesis, nice to read your comments. Although >the >mathematical aspects of his work are a little beyond my ability to use >productively, I quite enjoy Julius Smith's work (Jeanette originally >introduced me to it). > >Anyone curious can find the 4 books available to read online here: > >https://www.dsprelated.com/freebooks.php > > >Also cool to hear you work at Line 6; I've been using their products >since >the PodXT followed in the footsteps of the original red bean. > >Best, >Scott > >On Tue, Jul 25, 2023, 9:45 p.m. Partev Sarkissian < >0000060b2ef1338e-dmarc-request@listserv.heanet.ie> wrote: > >> >> -Amp >> -Filter >> -Delay >> ... three basic blocks used to create Models. Some 11 or 12 math form >> expressions used in modeling. >> >> In late 1975 to mid '76, a friend and I were trying to use what was >> called "numerical modeling" using >> vector math in a digital audio data stream, as a way to maintain data >> validity and minimize errors. I say >> "trying", because we were doing 16-bit data with two tandem 8-bit >CPU's >> that could not handle the >> calculation load and were too slow for processing audio. >> >> 1978, someone was trying to model pianos in a primitive way, that >spawned >> other methods. Then >> came John Chowning with Freeverb and FM synthesis and founder of >CCRMA. >> And since then >> Julius Smith has carried that on there,... along with his four books >on >> modeling. Thank you >> John and Julius. >> >> 1990 or '92, Los Angeles, AES convention, two guys from CCRMA with >faster, >> better processors >> demoed physical modeling. Everyone was wowed, including my future >boss. Commercial >> modeling >> came out around 1995 ish. Now I work at Line 6 since 2007 (now part >of >> Yamaha Guitar Group). >> >> Bit of historical background to go with that SOS article. >> >> >> -PBS >> >> ====================== >> >> On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 11:20:27 PM GMT+1, ST Music < >> stunes6556@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> You're quite welcome. Yes, experimentation indeed, I haven't the >skills to >> code physical modeling in any logical way. >> >> As the Sound on Sound article >> >> >https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/physical-modelling-synthesis-explained >> >> put it: >> The process of 'misusing' sound synthesis techniques has worked very >well >> for analogue synthesizers, and I see no reason why modelling‑based >> instruments should be any different. If it sounds like the timbre you >want, >> the method used to produce the timbre may well be irrelevant to you. >> >> If you find any clever solutions please let me know! >> >> Best, >> Scott >> >> On Tue, Jul 25, 2023, 5:21 p.m. Jeanette C. >wrote: >> >> hi Scott, >> thanks for this starting point. For now, I shall take it up and use >it. It >> seems a basis arrived by some careful experimentation. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Jeanette >> >> -- >> * Website: http://juliencoder.de - for summer is a state of sound >> * Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMS4rfGrTwz8W7jhC1Jnv7g >> * Audiobombs: https://www.audiobombs.com/users/jeanette_c >> * GitHub: https://github.com/jeanette-c >> >> ... And that I know you're out there and I know that you still care ><3 >> (Britney Spears) >> >> Csound mailing list >> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND >> Send bugs reports to >> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here >> >> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to >> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and >features >> can be posted here >> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to >> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and >features >> can be posted here > >Csound mailing list >Csound@listserv.heanet.ie >https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND >Send bugs reports to > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues >Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2023-07-26 15:35
From	Partev Sarkissian <0000060b2ef1338e-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE>
Subject	Re: [Csnd] wguide1: how to estimate/approximate note sustain
	I think I put Jeanette on to his books. Been acquainted with Julius since about 1986 ish, read all his papers in AES Journal and I have his four books. Jeanette has been going down some interesting roads, will be cool to hear the results. There is also Julius' web area at CCRMA,... https://ccrma.stanford.edu https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/ Enjoy, -Partev On Wednesday, July 26, 2023, 03:50:44 AM GMT+1, ST Music <stunes6556@gmail.com> wrote: An interesting area of synthesis, nice to read your comments. Although the mathematical aspects of his work are a little beyond my ability to use productively, I quite enjoy Julius Smith's work (Jeanette originally introduced me to it). Anyone curious can find the 4 books available to read online here: https://www.dsprelated.com/freebooks.php Also cool to hear you work at Line 6; I've been using their products since the PodXT followed in the footsteps of the original red bean. Best, Scott On Tue, Jul 25, 2023, 9:45 p.m. Partev Sarkissian <0000060b2ef1338e-dmarc-request@listserv.heanet.ie> wrote: -Amp -Filter -Delay ... three basic blocks used to create Models. Some 11 or 12 math form expressions used in modeling. In late 1975 to mid '76, a friend and I were trying to use what was called "numerical modeling" using vector math in a digital audio data stream, as a way to maintain data validity and minimize errors. I say "trying", because we were doing 16-bit data with two tandem 8-bit CPU's that could not handle the calculation load and were too slow for processing audio. 1978, someone was trying to model pianos in a primitive way, that spawned other methods. Then came John Chowning with Freeverb and FM synthesis and founder of CCRMA. And since then Julius Smith has carried that on there,... along with his four books on modeling. Thank you John and Julius. 1990 or '92, Los Angeles, AES convention, two guys from CCRMA with faster, better processors demoed physical modeling. Everyone was wowed, including my future boss. Commercial modeling came out around 1995 ish. Now I work at Line 6 since 2007 (now part of Yamaha Guitar Group). Bit of historical background to go with that SOS article. -PBS ====================== On Tuesday, July 25, 2023, 11:20:27 PM GMT+1, ST Music <stunes6556@gmail.com> wrote: You're quite welcome. Yes, experimentation indeed, I haven't the skills to code physical modeling in any logical way. As the Sound on Sound article https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/physical-modelling-synthesis-explained put it: The process of 'misusing' sound synthesis techniques has worked very well for analogue synthesizers, and I see no reason why modelling‑based instruments should be any different. If it sounds like the timbre you want, the method used to produce the timbre may well be irrelevant to you. If you find any clever solutions please let me know! Best, Scott On Tue, Jul 25, 2023, 5:21 p.m. Jeanette C. <julien@mail.upb.de> wrote: hi Scott, thanks for this starting point. For now, I shall take it up and use it. It seems a basis arrived by some careful experimentation. Best wishes, Jeanette -- * Website: http://juliencoder.de - for summer is a state of sound * Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMS4rfGrTwz8W7jhC1Jnv7g * Audiobombs: https://www.audiobombs.com/users/jeanette_c * GitHub: https://github.com/jeanette-c ... And that I know you're out there and I know that you still care <3 (Britney Spears) Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here