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[Csnd] ISAC - some questions

Date2023-01-31 18:40
FromEnrico Francioni <00000005323c8739-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE>
Subject[Csnd] ISAC - some questions
Hello everyone!
I'm thinking of participating with my acousmatic work at the ISAC in Pesaro-Italy and I was wondering a few things:

- how is it possible with Csound to be able to generate an Ambisonic composition in 6th order "Ambisonics full-sphere" format (49 channels)? Maybe generating an encoder inside the csd? Any examples?

- it is possible to generate 6th order ambisonic files (49 channels) with the following characteristics: “Multichannel WAV” (also known as “Wave64”) - single 49 ch. WAV files? Any examples?

- the Call also recommends monitoring the 3D audio scene through headphones with free or commercially available Ambisonics binauralizers; any tips for finding them?

- what type of sound card will be needed for this kind of work?

Many thanks for any reply!
Henry

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Date2023-01-31 20:30
FromGuillermo Senna
SubjectRe: [Csnd] ISAC - some questions
Hi Enrico,

There are probably several ways to do it. Creating an UDO to encode 6th 
order won't be a problem, but implementing a binaural decoder that 
doesn't low-pass the high frequency content (MagLS technique, for 
example) will be. I think the easier way then could be be to try to load 
some of the VSTs currently offered by some of the free Ambisonic plugin 
suites available (i.e., Sparta, IEM, Ambix, etc) inside Csound, or maybe 
synthesize and process the sound objects with Csound and then finish the 
composition inside an Ambisonic-friendly DAW such as Reaper.

Regarding the sound card, that shouldn't be your problem because you 
would be monitoring through binaural rendering. Having said that, if the 
venue wants to work with 6th order 3D Ambisonics, then they would need a 
considerable amount of speakers. I mean, you could use an AllRAD decoder 
with less speakers than required by the order, but the spread 
measurement would still be suboptimal.

Let me know if you have further questions!

Cheers.


On 31/1/23 15:40, Enrico Francioni wrote:
> Hello everyone!
> I'm thinking of participating with my acousmatic work at the ISAC in Pesaro-Italy and I was wondering a few things:
>
> - how is it possible with Csound to be able to generate an Ambisonic composition in 6th order "Ambisonics full-sphere" format (49 channels)? Maybe generating an encoder inside the csd? Any examples?
>
> - it is possible to generate 6th order ambisonic files (49 channels) with the following characteristics: “Multichannel WAV” (also known as “Wave64”) - single 49 ch. WAV files? Any examples?
>
> - the Call also recommends monitoring the 3D audio scene through headphones with free or commercially available Ambisonics binauralizers; any tips for finding them?
>
> - what type of sound card will be needed for this kind of work?
>
> Many thanks for any reply!
> Henry
>
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>          https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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Date2023-02-01 12:13
FromGiuseppe Silvi <000006613a17e48d-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE>
SubjectRe: [Csnd] ISAC - some questions
Hi,
to be able to compose full sphere ambisonics music, you should have at least a minimum multichannel setup: the tetrahedron (like quadraphonic but with different highness) or cube of loudspeakers. Even if the call suggests using headphones to monitor the ambisonics composition, composing for loudspeakers (and obviously the environment) is not comparable to composing for headphones, like for traditional planar configuration. It could be funny and interesting to listen with headphones, but for other purposes, with the comprehension of the loss that binaural encoding produces. 

The 6th order required is not related to the way you compose your music. The basilar principle of ambisonics production is that you chose the order in relationship with the loudspeaker array without compromising the full sphere encoding. That means that you can have tetrahedron (four channels high, low, high, low) with a first-order encoding and decoding during composition and listening of your music and make source positioning by proper encoding and then, only at the end of the production process, you can use higher order ambisonics encoding to generate the harmonic density required by the concert hall. It is magic and the better way to work in ambisonics (for loudspeakers music production).

You can consider the required 6th order as a mastering step, not related to the composition process. Sure! it is a compromise between your actual loudspeaker setup (the best you can have) and the concert hall setup (the best they can have). Nevertheless, that happens for each kind of mastering process: when you listen to a Deutsche Grammophone production with your home listening setup you don't have the same condition of listening as the mastering studios, even with only two loudspeakers involved.

The work could be done with proper loudspeaker listening, proper metering and experience, work after work, concert hall after concert hall: after all, for an acousmatic composition, the concert hall is the same thing as a string quartet for a piece of sheet with some dots between lines, it is matters of time and vibrating matter (that does not exist inside headphones).

> On 31 Jan 2023, at 21:30, Guillermo Senna  wrote:
> 
> Hi Enrico,
> 
> There are probably several ways to do it. Creating an UDO to encode 6th order won't be a problem, but implementing a binaural decoder that doesn't low-pass the high frequency content (MagLS technique, for example) will be. I think the easier way then could be be to try to load some of the VSTs currently offered by some of the free Ambisonic plugin suites available (i.e., Sparta, IEM, Ambix, etc) inside Csound, or maybe synthesize and process the sound objects with Csound and then finish the composition inside an Ambisonic-friendly DAW such as Reaper.
> 
> Regarding the sound card, that shouldn't be your problem because you would be monitoring through binaural rendering. Having said that, if the venue wants to work with 6th order 3D Ambisonics, then they would need a considerable amount of speakers. I mean, you could use an AllRAD decoder with less speakers than required by the order, but the spread measurement would still be suboptimal.
> 
> Let me know if you have further questions!
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 
> On 31/1/23 15:40, Enrico Francioni wrote:
>> Hello everyone!
>> I'm thinking of participating with my acousmatic work at the ISAC in Pesaro-Italy and I was wondering a few things:
>> 
>> - how is it possible with Csound to be able to generate an Ambisonic composition in 6th order "Ambisonics full-sphere" format (49 channels)? Maybe generating an encoder inside the csd? Any examples?
>> 
>> - it is possible to generate 6th order ambisonic files (49 channels) with the following characteristics: “Multichannel WAV” (also known as “Wave64”) - single 49 ch. WAV files? Any examples?
>> 
>> - the Call also recommends monitoring the 3D audio scene through headphones with free or commercially available Ambisonics binauralizers; any tips for finding them?
>> 
>> - what type of sound card will be needed for this kind of work?
>> 
>> Many thanks for any reply!
>> Henry
>> 
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> 
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>       https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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Date2023-02-01 17:11
FromGuillermo Senna
SubjectRe: [Csnd] ISAC - some questions
Hi Giuseppe,

I know decoding to binaural isn't a perfect solution, mostly because 
nobody has a personalized set of HRTFs and also because of the order 
mismatch between those and the Ambisonic signals. But given the new 
techniques we have right now for binaural rendering I'd say I prefer 
that to FOA decoding for monitoring. Here's a 2D example I just 
recorded, which I don't think sounds that bad (and it could sound much 
better if I had taken the time to find a better HRTF set!):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15zRsOWjYYA_ir2ZQCXLoyTGWS02sHQOh/view?usp=sharing

Anyway, while it is true that you don't have to work with the same 
Ambisonic order than the venue will use, the software you employ should 
be able to let you choose the order before rendering because once the 
Ambisonic scene is composed you can't upmix it (even though there are 
some new techniques that try to do this). What I mean is, don't start 
working with 1st order thinking that you can later generate a 6th order 
scene from those four channels only. In Csound you will need a new 
opcode, or at least an UDO, for later encoding each source at a higher 
order before summing.

Cheers!


On 1/2/23 09:13, Giuseppe Silvi wrote:
> Hi,
> to be able to compose full sphere ambisonics music, you should have at least a minimum multichannel setup: the tetrahedron (like quadraphonic but with different highness) or cube of loudspeakers. Even if the call suggests using headphones to monitor the ambisonics composition, composing for loudspeakers (and obviously the environment) is not comparable to composing for headphones, like for traditional planar configuration. It could be funny and interesting to listen with headphones, but for other purposes, with the comprehension of the loss that binaural encoding produces.
>
> The 6th order required is not related to the way you compose your music. The basilar principle of ambisonics production is that you chose the order in relationship with the loudspeaker array without compromising the full sphere encoding. That means that you can have tetrahedron (four channels high, low, high, low) with a first-order encoding and decoding during composition and listening of your music and make source positioning by proper encoding and then, only at the end of the production process, you can use higher order ambisonics encoding to generate the harmonic density required by the concert hall. It is magic and the better way to work in ambisonics (for loudspeakers music production).
>
> You can consider the required 6th order as a mastering step, not related to the composition process. Sure! it is a compromise between your actual loudspeaker setup (the best you can have) and the concert hall setup (the best they can have). Nevertheless, that happens for each kind of mastering process: when you listen to a Deutsche Grammophone production with your home listening setup you don't have the same condition of listening as the mastering studios, even with only two loudspeakers involved.
>
> The work could be done with proper loudspeaker listening, proper metering and experience, work after work, concert hall after concert hall: after all, for an acousmatic composition, the concert hall is the same thing as a string quartet for a piece of sheet with some dots between lines, it is matters of time and vibrating matter (that does not exist inside headphones).
>
>> On 31 Jan 2023, at 21:30, Guillermo Senna  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Enrico,
>>
>> There are probably several ways to do it. Creating an UDO to encode 6th order won't be a problem, but implementing a binaural decoder that doesn't low-pass the high frequency content (MagLS technique, for example) will be. I think the easier way then could be be to try to load some of the VSTs currently offered by some of the free Ambisonic plugin suites available (i.e., Sparta, IEM, Ambix, etc) inside Csound, or maybe synthesize and process the sound objects with Csound and then finish the composition inside an Ambisonic-friendly DAW such as Reaper.
>>
>> Regarding the sound card, that shouldn't be your problem because you would be monitoring through binaural rendering. Having said that, if the venue wants to work with 6th order 3D Ambisonics, then they would need a considerable amount of speakers. I mean, you could use an AllRAD decoder with less speakers than required by the order, but the spread measurement would still be suboptimal.
>>
>> Let me know if you have further questions!
>>
>> Cheers.
>>
>>
>> On 31/1/23 15:40, Enrico Francioni wrote:
>>> Hello everyone!
>>> I'm thinking of participating with my acousmatic work at the ISAC in Pesaro-Italy and I was wondering a few things:
>>>
>>> - how is it possible with Csound to be able to generate an Ambisonic composition in 6th order "Ambisonics full-sphere" format (49 channels)? Maybe generating an encoder inside the csd? Any examples?
>>>
>>> - it is possible to generate 6th order ambisonic files (49 channels) with the following characteristics: “Multichannel WAV” (also known as “Wave64”) - single 49 ch. WAV files? Any examples?
>>>
>>> - the Call also recommends monitoring the 3D audio scene through headphones with free or commercially available Ambisonics binauralizers; any tips for finding them?
>>>
>>> - what type of sound card will be needed for this kind of work?
>>>
>>> Many thanks for any reply!
>>> Henry
>>>
>>> Csound mailing list
>>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>          https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>          https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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Date2023-02-01 19:47
FromOscar Pablo Di Liscia
SubjectRe: [Csnd] ISAC - some questions
Hello.
All the aforementioned advices seem to me very useful and reasonable.
I only want to add that there are several UDOs (written by Joachim
Heintz, as I recall) in the Csound Floss Manual
for encoding-decoding any order of Ambisonics.
See there, among others: EXAMPLE 05B10_udo_ambisonics2D_1.csd
Best
Pablo

El mié, 1 feb 2023 a las 14:12, Guillermo Senna () escribió:
>
> Hi Giuseppe,
>
> I know decoding to binaural isn't a perfect solution, mostly because
> nobody has a personalized set of HRTFs and also because of the order
> mismatch between those and the Ambisonic signals. But given the new
> techniques we have right now for binaural rendering I'd say I prefer
> that to FOA decoding for monitoring. Here's a 2D example I just
> recorded, which I don't think sounds that bad (and it could sound much
> better if I had taken the time to find a better HRTF set!):
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/15zRsOWjYYA_ir2ZQCXLoyTGWS02sHQOh/view?usp=sharing
>
> Anyway, while it is true that you don't have to work with the same
> Ambisonic order than the venue will use, the software you employ should
> be able to let you choose the order before rendering because once the
> Ambisonic scene is composed you can't upmix it (even though there are
> some new techniques that try to do this). What I mean is, don't start
> working with 1st order thinking that you can later generate a 6th order
> scene from those four channels only. In Csound you will need a new
> opcode, or at least an UDO, for later encoding each source at a higher
> order before summing.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
> On 1/2/23 09:13, Giuseppe Silvi wrote:
> > Hi,
> > to be able to compose full sphere ambisonics music, you should have at least a minimum multichannel setup: the tetrahedron (like quadraphonic but with different highness) or cube of loudspeakers. Even if the call suggests using headphones to monitor the ambisonics composition, composing for loudspeakers (and obviously the environment) is not comparable to composing for headphones, like for traditional planar configuration. It could be funny and interesting to listen with headphones, but for other purposes, with the comprehension of the loss that binaural encoding produces.
> >
> > The 6th order required is not related to the way you compose your music. The basilar principle of ambisonics production is that you chose the order in relationship with the loudspeaker array without compromising the full sphere encoding. That means that you can have tetrahedron (four channels high, low, high, low) with a first-order encoding and decoding during composition and listening of your music and make source positioning by proper encoding and then, only at the end of the production process, you can use higher order ambisonics encoding to generate the harmonic density required by the concert hall. It is magic and the better way to work in ambisonics (for loudspeakers music production).
> >
> > You can consider the required 6th order as a mastering step, not related to the composition process. Sure! it is a compromise between your actual loudspeaker setup (the best you can have) and the concert hall setup (the best they can have). Nevertheless, that happens for each kind of mastering process: when you listen to a Deutsche Grammophone production with your home listening setup you don't have the same condition of listening as the mastering studios, even with only two loudspeakers involved.
> >
> > The work could be done with proper loudspeaker listening, proper metering and experience, work after work, concert hall after concert hall: after all, for an acousmatic composition, the concert hall is the same thing as a string quartet for a piece of sheet with some dots between lines, it is matters of time and vibrating matter (that does not exist inside headphones).
> >
> >> On 31 Jan 2023, at 21:30, Guillermo Senna  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Enrico,
> >>
> >> There are probably several ways to do it. Creating an UDO to encode 6th order won't be a problem, but implementing a binaural decoder that doesn't low-pass the high frequency content (MagLS technique, for example) will be. I think the easier way then could be be to try to load some of the VSTs currently offered by some of the free Ambisonic plugin suites available (i.e., Sparta, IEM, Ambix, etc) inside Csound, or maybe synthesize and process the sound objects with Csound and then finish the composition inside an Ambisonic-friendly DAW such as Reaper.
> >>
> >> Regarding the sound card, that shouldn't be your problem because you would be monitoring through binaural rendering. Having said that, if the venue wants to work with 6th order 3D Ambisonics, then they would need a considerable amount of speakers. I mean, you could use an AllRAD decoder with less speakers than required by the order, but the spread measurement would still be suboptimal.
> >>
> >> Let me know if you have further questions!
> >>
> >> Cheers.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 31/1/23 15:40, Enrico Francioni wrote:
> >>> Hello everyone!
> >>> I'm thinking of participating with my acousmatic work at the ISAC in Pesaro-Italy and I was wondering a few things:
> >>>
> >>> - how is it possible with Csound to be able to generate an Ambisonic composition in 6th order "Ambisonics full-sphere" format (49 channels)? Maybe generating an encoder inside the csd? Any examples?
> >>>
> >>> - it is possible to generate 6th order ambisonic files (49 channels) with the following characteristics: “Multichannel WAV” (also known as “Wave64”) - single 49 ch. WAV files? Any examples?
> >>>
> >>> - the Call also recommends monitoring the 3D audio scene through headphones with free or commercially available Ambisonics binauralizers; any tips for finding them?
> >>>
> >>> - what type of sound card will be needed for this kind of work?
> >>>
> >>> Many thanks for any reply!
> >>> Henry
> >>>
> >>> Csound mailing list
> >>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> >>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> >>> Send bugs reports to
> >>>          https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> >>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> >> Csound mailing list
> >> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> >> Send bugs reports to
> >>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> > Csound mailing list
> > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> > Send bugs reports to
> >          https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here



-- 
Dr. Oscar Pablo Di Liscia
Profesor Titular
Co-Director Programa de Investigación "Sistemas Temporales y Síntesis
Espacial en el Arte Sonoro"
http://stseas.web.unq.edu.ar/
Escuela Universitaria de Artes
Universidad Nacional de Quilmes
Argentina

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Date2023-02-01 19:48
FromGiuseppe Silvi <000006613a17e48d-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE>
SubjectRe: [Csnd] ISAC - some questions

Hi Guillermo,

Sure. I perfectly agree with you. My point is that a scalable encoder is better than a fixed 6th order with headphones decoding. A UDO, reaper, Faust… any solution with loudspeakers, for me, is better than headphones. The point is: in concert music a source in space is different than a source in the ear.

Thank you for the example, it sounds very clean and focused and explains exactly the necessity to listen to that focus in the air, not in mind. 

Best!

Giuseppe


Sent from my iPhone

On 1 Feb 2023, at 18:12, Guillermo Senna <gsenna@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Giuseppe,

I know decoding to binaural isn't a perfect solution, mostly because nobody has a personalized set of HRTFs and also because of the order mismatch between those and the Ambisonic signals. But given the new techniques we have right now for binaural rendering I'd say I prefer that to FOA decoding for monitoring. Here's a 2D example I just recorded, which I don't think sounds that bad (and it could sound much better if I had taken the time to find a better HRTF set!):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15zRsOWjYYA_ir2ZQCXLoyTGWS02sHQOh/view?usp=sharing

Anyway, while it is true that you don't have to work with the same Ambisonic order than the venue will use, the software you employ should be able to let you choose the order before rendering because once the Ambisonic scene is composed you can't upmix it (even though there are some new techniques that try to do this). What I mean is, don't start working with 1st order thinking that you can later generate a 6th order scene from those four channels only. In Csound you will need a new opcode, or at least an UDO, for later encoding each source at a higher order before summing.

Cheers!


On 1/2/23 09:13, Giuseppe Silvi wrote:
Hi,
to be able to compose full sphere ambisonics music, you should have at least a minimum multichannel setup: the tetrahedron (like quadraphonic but with different highness) or cube of loudspeakers. Even if the call suggests using headphones to monitor the ambisonics composition, composing for loudspeakers (and obviously the environment) is not comparable to composing for headphones, like for traditional planar configuration. It could be funny and interesting to listen with headphones, but for other purposes, with the comprehension of the loss that binaural encoding produces.

The 6th order required is not related to the way you compose your music. The basilar principle of ambisonics production is that you chose the order in relationship with the loudspeaker array without compromising the full sphere encoding. That means that you can have tetrahedron (four channels high, low, high, low) with a first-order encoding and decoding during composition and listening of your music and make source positioning by proper encoding and then, only at the end of the production process, you can use higher order ambisonics encoding to generate the harmonic density required by the concert hall. It is magic and the better way to work in ambisonics (for loudspeakers music production).

You can consider the required 6th order as a mastering step, not related to the composition process. Sure! it is a compromise between your actual loudspeaker setup (the best you can have) and the concert hall setup (the best they can have). Nevertheless, that happens for each kind of mastering process: when you listen to a Deutsche Grammophone production with your home listening setup you don't have the same condition of listening as the mastering studios, even with only two loudspeakers involved.

The work could be done with proper loudspeaker listening, proper metering and experience, work after work, concert hall after concert hall: after all, for an acousmatic composition, the concert hall is the same thing as a string quartet for a piece of sheet with some dots between lines, it is matters of time and vibrating matter (that does not exist inside headphones).

On 31 Jan 2023, at 21:30, Guillermo Senna <gsenna@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

Hi Enrico,

There are probably several ways to do it. Creating an UDO to encode 6th order won't be a problem, but implementing a binaural decoder that doesn't low-pass the high frequency content (MagLS technique, for example) will be. I think the easier way then could be be to try to load some of the VSTs currently offered by some of the free Ambisonic plugin suites available (i.e., Sparta, IEM, Ambix, etc) inside Csound, or maybe synthesize and process the sound objects with Csound and then finish the composition inside an Ambisonic-friendly DAW such as Reaper.

Regarding the sound card, that shouldn't be your problem because you would be monitoring through binaural rendering. Having said that, if the venue wants to work with 6th order 3D Ambisonics, then they would need a considerable amount of speakers. I mean, you could use an AllRAD decoder with less speakers than required by the order, but the spread measurement would still be suboptimal.

Let me know if you have further questions!

Cheers.


On 31/1/23 15:40, Enrico Francioni wrote:
Hello everyone!
I'm thinking of participating with my acousmatic work at the ISAC in Pesaro-Italy and I was wondering a few things:

- how is it possible with Csound to be able to generate an Ambisonic composition in 6th order "Ambisonics full-sphere" format (49 channels)? Maybe generating an encoder inside the csd? Any examples?

- it is possible to generate 6th order ambisonic files (49 channels) with the following characteristics: “Multichannel WAV” (also known as “Wave64”) - single 49 ch. WAV files? Any examples?

- the Call also recommends monitoring the 3D audio scene through headphones with free or commercially available Ambisonics binauralizers; any tips for finding them?

- what type of sound card will be needed for this kind of work?

Many thanks for any reply!
Henry

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